The Importance Of Human Connection In Hiring

Ange Dove (00:01)

Welcome to You're the Boss Podcast Show. And today I have with me Barnaby Andrews calling in from Australia. So Barnaby, welcome to the show.

Barnaby Andrews (00:12)

Thank you, Ang. How are you?

Ange Dove (00:14)

I'm good. And yourself?

Barnaby Andrews (00:17)

Yeah, really well, thank you.

Ange Dove (00:18)

Yeah, that's good. So we're talking today about why the rules are broken around hiring and how AI is basically affecting the whole landscape. So just for the purpose of understanding the context of where you're coming from today, just explain a little bit about yourself and your history, why you've got to where you are today.

Barnaby Andrews (00:46)

Okay, that's a long and varied question, it is, it is. I'll the the usual's obviously growing up for childhood is

Ange Dove (00:48)

That's a big ask.

Barnaby Andrews (00:58)

I actually trained at university in accounting, so it's a the most boring subject you could ever wish for. And then I left and I qualif qualified as an accountant. but as I was doing that, it was really interesting. I started to to understand the businesses a lot more and I could see my business brain switching on more and more. and and with that I could also see people's problems and as we

Ange Dove (01:05)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (01:16)

Mm.

Nine.

Barnaby Andrews (01:28)

moved further into the audit work, I found out that I got on better with clients and understood their problems more than I could from an accounting point of view. Yeah, it it was.

Ange Dove (01:36)

interesting. Okay. Well I I did I did accounting for my banking exams in the UK and I failed.

Ange Dove (01:51)

I had to I had to retake just the accounting section. I had to retake again. that I passed the second time, but I hated it. my god, I really hated it. Didn't understand it. And and what made it worse was the the teacher that was teaching us said on the first lesson, You're all bankers, so you only see one side of a balance sheet. You're either gonna get this in the next couple of weeks or you're not. That's what he said. You'll never get it, right? So after the first couple of weeks, okay.

Barnaby Andrews (01:56)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (02:20)

I'm never gonna get this. But but but but then when I started my own business, and obviously I have to do my accounts, then it started to make sense. Like when I had actually something real to apply it to, then it made sense. But all this theory in college, no idea what I was doing.

Barnaby Andrews (02:22)

Yeah, I I

Barnaby Andrews (02:37)

It is

Barnaby Andrews (02:42)

And and when it's he sort of gets pushed into your hands as you go through the the work and the qualifications, it sits there as a second brain in you. That and figures sort of trail through everything over the years and it's a weird thing that you can just sort of turn to straight away. But it was the best decision, best decision I ever made doing that degree. So I went I had a couple of years off before uni and then I went back and it was best decision I ever made. So

Ange Dove (02:58)

Okay.

Ange Dove (03:08)

Right.

Barnaby Andrews (03:09)

Yeah, so then I I qualified as an accountant and I just didn't I wasn't enjoying myself. I it wasn't using my people skills. and I I realized early on, even from childhood, that I was really good at just making people connect, bringing people together. That was my the thing that I really, really enjoyed doing this when my heart felt good. I started with friends, you know, getting them paper rounds and things and and jobs and then

Ange Dove (03:14)

Mm.

Right.

Ange Dove (03:30)

Right. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (03:36)

When I finished my accounting degree and I did some work more auditing, I think I thought, yeah, I'm I'm I need to get more involved. everyone says you fall into headhunting and hiring and at the time it was called recruitments. And I sort of did. And I really I loved it. I absolutely loved it at that time. Because you were help you were helping people, truly bef and this is before all the the technology became so involved, it was a people business.

Ange Dove (03:49)

Okay.

Ange Dove (03:54)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (04:02)

Right. Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (04:04)

And then I think as technology has evolved and evolved over the years, it's become less and less about people. And when I finished mainstream headhunting probably six or seven years ago now, I realized that the market's changed an awful lot. And I think since COVID, we've seen a whole shift. COVID was the start, I think, with

Ange Dove (04:10)

Right.

Ange Dove (04:19)

Right.

Barnaby Andrews (04:26)

AI or tech that's shifted it a little bit further quickly. But even sort of two thousand eight and nine, really, when with everything started to take over, tech started to really expand. That's where we saw everything changed and and now it's got to the point where this beautiful thing we call AI is

Ange Dove (04:37)

Okay.

Barnaby Andrews (04:48)

I don't know whether you've if if it has positively helped you in life or negatively. I see both I see both sides of it, and it's yeah. So yeah. so I found myself in this situation now where I've I've been through multinational businesses, I've helped build them, I've helped build small businesses as well, and on purely from the hiring and then the business control and advisory side. And it's changed and the

Ange Dove (04:56)

No. Yeah.

Ange Dove (05:13)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (05:17)

The AI side has

Do we call it AI or do we call it tech? I don't know which way one is the best way to say. I'm gonna call it AI. Has cons has but has it's thrown everyone into disarray. And nobody knows where they're going. And I think this was part of my problem was now that even businesses don't know which way they're gonna go, turn left, turn right, they don't they can't predict anything. so when projects start off like they used to years ago, you knew they were gonna see their full length.

Ange Dove (05:25)

Okay.

Ange Dove (05:33)

Mm.

Ange Dove (05:45)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (05:50)

Now you don't even know if the employers are gonna be around to be able to continue that. And we all know it's happened. Yeah, and it's affecting every industry. so I think AI has been great. I think it's allowed information to be transferred a lot quicker and it's allowed everybody to get hold of information quicker. But I also think in real seriousness that it's causing way too many problems.

Ange Dove (05:53)

my god. yeah. Everything so and such.

Ange Dove (06:00)

Mm.

Ange Dove (06:13)

Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (06:19)

Hmm. So it what kind of problems?

Barnaby Andrews (06:21)

Because

Well, if you think about it, it's it's I think it's information overload.

Ange Dove (06:28)

Right, yeah. Is that yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (06:29)

It's in hiring it's purely information overload. And companies don't know what to do. They think they can do it themselves now because they've got all this why should we use an agency or a third party? We've got all the information ourselves, and then they don't understand the nuances of actually finding a good person. It's a lot harder than just putting an advert out. and for the agencies the same, they're looking there and they're all competing on the same level.

Ange Dove (06:33)

Okay.

Ange Dove (06:42)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (06:47)

Right.

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (06:57)

There's no huge differentiator. I mean, we've gone through the videos, we've gone through the the people that can put their CVs through ATSs and they come absolutely perfect. The ATSs get better to try and sick signal those out. And then now you've got companies that are developing they're developing programs f that you can feed your resume into that now bypasses ATSs because they're that clever that they can weave their way through an ATS and pop it out the other end.

as if it's never been seen by it. So it's it's creating little mini businesses for people, but it's all at the same time, we we've got to go back to what this is. It's about helping people and organizations to come together. So we have an industry and we have an economy that we can build on. That and we we all laugh and joke about AI, but you've got to look at it incredibly seriously is where do our kids end up? Where do they go?

Ange Dove (07:36)

Mm.

Mm.

Ange Dove (07:45)

Right.

Ange Dove (07:51)

Mm-hmm.

Barnaby Andrews (07:54)

know you've got to look generationally down the line what's gonna happen here and and I think it's t touching into our generation now quite quite heavily and so I don't know with this one and it's it's it's causing an awful lot of problems and it's dehumanizing the approach in what should be a totally human industry. And

Ange Dove (07:56)

Mm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (08:13)

It is

Ange Dove (08:18)

Yeah. Yeah, it's hu it's called human resources, right?

Barnaby Andrews (08:22)

Well it is and and and you can't everyone expects now that you press a few buttons and AI is gonna pitch the perfect person for you. Six sixty is seventy well seven I know sixty five to seventy percent of jobs aren't advertised.

Ange Dove (08:31)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (08:39)

Mm. Okay.

Barnaby Andrews (08:42)

But also the really good candidates, the really good candidates don't necessarily go onto the job boards. They have other ways of doing things, which is to help them stand out. You you'll hear of all the famous ones. There was the girl who

Ange Dove (08:51)

Mm. Right.

Barnaby Andrews (09:00)

I've forgotten her name now with Canva. Canva didn't want her for a particular job, but she found that there was a great opportunity there. She pitched a business case, she pitched it again, and she pitched it again, and eventually they took her on. And that's a classic of just keep pushing and knowing that you want to work somewhere. Yeah, you'll do anything. Persistence making herself different. and I think that's now what's gonna have to happen. People need to make themselves different.

Ange Dove (09:12)

Okay. So persistence, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Ange Dove (09:25)

I had that as well. Actually, I had that experience when I put an a job role out on LinkedIn. And I actually got with a criteria I wanted, zero candidates were actually suitable for the job. I got like 700 applicants and zero could tick all the boxes that I list it, right? but one girl stood out.

Because she actually got hold of my phone number and she messaged me on WhatsApp and she said, I've applied for a the role on LinkedIn. I just wanted to let you know, you know, I would I would be interested in talking to you about it further. So she was the only one who did that. So of course I spoke to her, right? But yeah, it's doing things like that, right?

Barnaby Andrews (10:11)

And that's it it is and that's the biggest thing. And that's my next challenge. My next challenge now is to help people to distinguish themselves better than other people. And there's a lot of fear about doing that 'cause you put a load of people into a room and it's natural to look around and think it's it's your own insecurities will always come out, you think?

Ange Dove (10:34)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (10:35)

As good as those guys, and they're all probably feeling exactly the same. Yeah, look at that, look at that person, they look amazing. That person's probably as scared as you are, and all looking around. So it's about projecting your totally, absolutely, and it's about helping people to project their true personality and their true who they are over and above everybody else, and it's to it's

Ange Dove (10:38)

Than yeah.

Ange Dove (10:43)

Yeah.

Imposter syndrome.

Ange Dove (10:58)

Right.

Barnaby Andrews (11:04)

AI does a great job. Okay. It does a great job at a level. But all it in in essence, all it is doing is simplifying what it was what it's made into a very complex situation. So whereas 15, 20 years ago, 20 people might have applied for a job, it might not be a thousand because you can press one button and it just disperses it everywhere. So if you're a job hunter and you're looking and you're trying to track that down, you

Ange Dove (11:06)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (11:26)

okay.

Ange Dove (11:32)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (11:34)

You find it impossible. It's really hard. And then where's where's the old adage of trying to chase a company for a job? When I was younger, I wanted to go and work for X and X and X Company because they were great. And to get in through the front door took a real big effort. And now it's like if you get a rejection, most people are like, well, got a rejection.

Ange Dove (11:41)

Mm.

Ange Dove (11:45)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (11:50)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (11:55)

plow on next and hopefully I might get one, hopefully I might get one. And it's changing that we need to change that attitude amongst people and say, you know, we are good, we're all good, we're all where we are, don't let a machine take that away from us. We are that's that's the whole the whole thing. And but the the worst part is you want the clients want to speak to good candidates.

Ange Dove (11:58)

Mm.

Ange Dove (12:07.712)

Right. Yeah. 'Cause that's what it is, right? It's you're you're being rejected by a machine, not a human.

Ange Dove (12:23)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (12:24)

Good candidates are going then look and this is where it gets even worse is good candidates are looking at the system to get to the client here and going, Well, I'm not I'm not going through all that. I'll go to an e an easier route. So you're getting and this is where the problem is. I've spent years trying to understand how it works. It's probably gonna take me another load of years trying to see how it all fits together. But it's

Barnaby Andrews (12:49)

You got clients wanting really good people, you then you got HR, then you got all the decision makers. and just like the old whispers in the forest, they all get a little bit mutated as you're going along and nothing matches and it just it doesn't work. My my biggest thing was I try to pussyfoot around this and I just hiring is broken.

Here it goes. It is me getting really hiring is broken and everybody's sat there going, No, it's not, it's fine, we're gonna AI it's not gonna happen unless we do something.

Ange Dove (13:22)

Yeah. I mean this is what, you know, like we we connected over LinkedIn, right? And this is what made me contact you is because I saw that on your LinkedIn profile hiring is bro broken or the rules are broken or something, or break the rules or whatever, right? So I was like, I need to I need to speak to him, right? So So that's why I contact you. So like and then we had the pre interview.

Barnaby Andrews (13:38)

Yeah. It was something like that, yeah.

Ange Dove (13:49)

And we spoke about all of these things and it's just such a fascinating topic, right? And as you say, I mean, the thing in business anyway is nothing stays the same, right? And I think as a business owner, you have to accept that there's always going to be change. And like in my business, things changed. I was always having to pivot, change things. It was usually because of technology. So it was when Google first came on. That was the first one that really well, first of all, it was the internet.

Barnaby Andrews (13:50)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (14:19)

So when I first started the business, the internet had only just started, right? So but all my clients were multinational companies and they weren't on the internet at all. Like they had not caught on, right? So the main jobs that I was doing for multinational companies was print newsletters. That was my bread and butter, was print newsletters.

Barnaby Andrews (14:21)

I'm with you I'm with you on that one.

Ange Dove (14:47)

mean they don't really exist anymore, but anyway, that's that's that. And then then when Google came on and then people realized they needed to get content put out in order to be found online, then writing became a serious business and everybody wanted content, right? So then that changed. But then that also then created supply of writers, which then meant copywriting became a corporate job. It was a full time job.

So then I lost the MNC clients because they all had copywriters in-house. So then I had to go to the smaller companies. So I think, okay, this is fine, we'll do this. And then of course Chat GPT came out and then then the smaller companies, right? I could do my own writing, thank you. So so like over time things have changed and you've just got to keep up with the changes, right? Keep up with what's happening and and pivot and try and work out where you fit in now. But it's

It's getting harder, right? So

Barnaby Andrews (15:48)

It is. And and I think Anders, what's what's happening is that people are everybody thinks a bit like when the internet came. It's a there's get rich quick schemes out there. And it doesn't work like that. Every I mean there are there's there's people that made a fortune in it, and I'm sure there will be. But at the end of the day, it's a tool that we

Ange Dove (16:11)

Bitcoin and all that, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (16:13)

Yeah, I mean that's great. And still even now, you know, there's some incredibly clever people that know how to work with AI to make it the best. And it's but the AI itself, the way it can I use the anal analogy of threading a needle through your processes and pulling it like that, and it can tighten your processes really well and then automate them. That to me is what I use, is brilliant because that just saves time and money.

Ange Dove (16:18)

Yeah. Just right time, right place. Yeah.

Ange Dove (16:31)

Mm. Mm. Right. Right.

Yes. Yeah. Automation is great.

Barnaby Andrews (16:42)

But then but then that still has to be taught to people about how it works within a business. So yeah, potentially that the jobs of the coders doing this may not be there, but they're still going to need people to be able to work through that and deliver it out to the businesses. we may be having a completely different conversation in a year or two about this one. But I from my point of view, I just think that everyone should go, right.

Ange Dove (16:47)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (16:59)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (17:12)

It's changed. Now we've got to do something different. I I study every night something to do with AI and I just listen to a podcast. I've got some really good, really I should let you know, I see some really good YouTube clips that just explain all the different bits and pieces. And those are the things you've got to master to just give yourself that little extra edge that people don't tell you about. And it's

Ange Dove (17:36)

Mm. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (17:42)

Yeah, it's so my goal is to help people understand how they can take this whole mess, put it into a small place, and go, right, take a breather and go, I don't need to worry about absolutely everything. We can just look at this and this will give a guideline, da da da da so I now understand what it's all about, AI. And then

Take that decision to write now. I understand it, I know where I fit into it. Let's take ourselves to a different level and look at how I can project myself. And then that becomes standard to any process about trying to get a job or an application, or really you say you say anything in life, it's about being yourself. but I think a lot of it now has to be more empowerment to the people.

Ange Dove (18:18)

Hm.

Barnaby Andrews (18:35)

That's right. And I don't mean like marching down the street going empowerment to the people or anything. But it's Yes. I do. I do. my god. Do you know do you know do you know where that was filmed, Citizen Smith? It was filmed at it was filmed in a place called Tutink.

Ange Dove (18:41)

It's that T V program in the UK, Citizen Smith was ill. Do you remember that?

Ange Dove (18:50)

That was brilliant.

Ange Dove (18:55)

No.

Ange Dove (18:59)

toot yeah, tooting, yeah, tooting Broadway, right?

Barnaby Andrews (19:01)

And so Tooting nope, but this is without a word about it. Tooting Broadway. My mum and my stepfather owned a pub on Tooting Broadway. And they had them in they had them in for a filming session. I think it was late, it would have been late 70s, I think. I can't remember. Something about then, yeah. And I remember seeing it in the not so long afterwards and going, I recognise all these places and everything. So

Ange Dove (19:11)

Okay.

Ange Dove (19:17)

Yeah, late seventies, yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (19:27)

But I think I've always said with AI, and I've said it for years now, if it gets to the point where people are feeling AI's taking over, and everyone's going, what's gonna stop it? What's gonna stop it? Just show of hands and an uproar will just go, you know, tools down. We're not doing it. I don't know. I'm I'm I've got my own opinion on on a lot of things. But I'm quite brutal about it. And it is like you either

Ange Dove (19:44)

Okay.

Ange Dove (19:49)

Hmm.

Ange Dove (19:53)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (19:56)

Go with it and get washed aside or you work with it. It's very clear at the moment that a lot of companies are quite happy with the way they're missing everybody and everything and just saying, Well, we're doing the best we can when they're not.

Ange Dove (20:09)

Yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (20:10)

And there's no best practice around it. There's no particular sequence anyone should use. And it is sorry.

Ange Dove (20:13)

Yeah. I was talking somebody about that today. I was talking to someone exactly about this, about there's no guardrails. the company's data is at risk and they don't know, right? All this kind of stuff as well. So there's all that side of it as well.

Barnaby Andrews (20:31)

So when you look at when you look at hiring and governance, so hiring's probably the second single biggest expense you'll do with a business after you start up after your main startup costs. and everyone knows the costs of hiring, that they put figures out, it's two times this or three times the salary if you get rid of the minute. That's fine, you can work that out. But what a lot of people don't realise is that the cost of hiring is far, far more than that. Because you're looking at especially

Ange Dove (20:34)

Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (20:41)

Right. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (21:00)

Like hiring in the the older days used people used to be proud when they hired. It's like look at us, we're expanding, we're doing this, we're great. And now it's just become a com because it's become a commodity now. But when you hire the risk

Ange Dove (21:08)

Yeah. It's the opposite actually. I've managed to get my team down because I'm using AI. That kind of thing, right?

Barnaby Andrews (21:16)

Yeah, don't you feel proud of yourself? No, but it's I understand it all because businesses have to make a profit. But it it it all should be relevant and it should be not at the cost of people's lives and livelihood as well. That has to that's gotta be balanced out. So

Ange Dove (21:32)

Yeah. Yeah. I think this this is the key thing, right? Is the cost on people, right?

Barnaby Andrews (21:38)

it's definitely it's it's really yeah, it has to be it's people at the end of the day, it's lives, it's families, it's children, it's grandparents, parents. It's it's everybody and we've sort of gotta make sure that everybody is empowered to know how to deal with this best rather than put their head in the sand. And and I don't mean to go out and be the best person ever in AI. It's just to understand the effects it's having.

Ange Dove (21:43)

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Ange Dove (22:08)

Right.

Barnaby Andrews (22:08)

Where you particularly slotted with your own skills. Everybody has a really good skill set. Whether it's you can talk a lot, you could draw, whatever it is, you could have got a really and it's honing that skill set and going for that that is more important now than ever. and I've told you that the whole AI, I j I just think it it has broken everything, it's just overcomplicated everything.

Ange Dove (22:15)

Mm.

Ange Dove (22:26)

Mm.

Ange Dove (22:34)

Yeah.

Yeah. And as you say, I think we we don't really know what the full impact's gonna be either. So everything's just unknown, right? It's just the uncertainty.

Barnaby Andrews (22:43)

no. But going what I was true. going back to what I was saying about the the the facts on a business, you've got so some of the major risks are your insurances. you could be letting clients down. the whole government's we all and this is affecting smaller businesses, small to medium businesses and large businesses because it

Ange Dove (22:57)

Mm-hmm.

Barnaby Andrews (23:09)

These costs and these issues are hitting the guys and girls and everybody that's out there in the back pocket. So owners are scared to be hit in the back pocket by a failure. And they think it's just if they don't get the right person, but it's not because it can disrupt a team. People may leave if they're not absolutely right. you could take the list down, it's just

Ange Dove (23:15)

Mm-hmm.

Barnaby Andrews (23:35)

It's such a nuance based thing hiring somebody, which is why it's so important to get it right. Especially in a small to medium business. you know, anyone I suppose if you've got over a a a few hundred staff, then you you're looking more corporate and then you've got the whole systems to dig at and that's a whole different kettle of fish. But yeah, it's I could go for hours. I just I I love the subject and I love getting emotive about it. Sometimes I have to

Ange Dove (23:41)

Mm.

Ange Dove (24:06)

So so tell tell me about what it is you're doing now then to address this, what your community and what's in the plan that's in the making for you now.

Barnaby Andrews (24:17)

So what

Barnaby Andrews (24:23)

So the business that I have my overall holding group, which is the best practice resource group, is about bringing best practice to resourcing people. That's a hard buy and a hard sell. So that's to people need to make that decision. I have my consulting business, but the one I I drive forward now is a company called Brinkle. Now Brinkle is

Ange Dove (24:37)

Hm.

Barnaby Andrews (24:53)

For people mainly that are finding it very difficult to stand out from the crowd when they're applying for jobs or when they're in like I mentioned before, when they're in a group situation and they want to just be that little bit better than everybody else. And it it's not about teaching, it's not about

Ange Dove (25:00)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (25:20)

learning how to fill forms out better and thing like that. It's more it's giving you knowledge to make you pull into the bits of you that you perhaps have forgotten and you don't realize. make I could make this as complex or as deep as I possibly could. So I could go complex going to the psyche mode of it and the motivational side and then the physical side. You you you can go off everywhere.

Ange Dove (25:35)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (25:49)

But most people just want to know that they're doing the right thing within certain guidelines that's going to give them an edge if they do that correctly. And also to have a group of people talking about it that empathize, they're in the same boat, and can understand your situation. Because it's a lonely world. If you're fearing if you're fearing for your job, or if you're unemployed, even worse, or

Ange Dove (26:10)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (26:18)

you have you you're just lost in where your career's going because you don't know what's happening with AI. You need some sort of baseline to say right, okay. You don't yeah I mean qualifications are great but they're not going to open doors for you. So you need to understand the nuances that employers will look for. Those little personal things. So what what I want to do, what we are going to be doing

Ange Dove (26:28)

Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (26:40)

Okay.

Barnaby Andrews (26:48)

is just building

Barnaby Andrews (26:54)

I call it a product because it is it is a product that you can simply buy for a crazy cheap price, which gives you access to all this information in a very struct in a very structured manner. but it's also open to complete and utter suggestion from everybody. This is me not telling anybody exactly how it should be done. This is me

Ange Dove (27:16)

Mm. Okay.

Barnaby Andrews (27:23)

Giving 25-30 years of experience in the market back to everybody that can benefit from it. Because I've done my time in it and I know better than most people. I've done, you know, I've been international, I've d small businesses style, as I explained before, every possible business you can imagine I've been involved with, including selling my own and selling them. So I know how all that works as well. So

Ange Dove (27:27)

Mm. Mm-hmm. Right.

Barnaby Andrews (27:52)

Why do that and then not share it with anybody? That's my biggest thing. That needs to be shared. And then it's not just my sharing. I'm inviting people to come in and just do some a bit like we're doing now. Their own sharing. And we we've got some real industry big hitters that are interested in just sharing tips and I had a we do it quite often now where I just say to people, just give me

Ange Dove (27:55)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (28:04)

sharing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (28:10)

Right.

Barnaby Andrews (28:22)

some of the funniest interviews that you've had with candidates. Candidates just give me some of the funniest interviews you've had with clients. And make it a little bit funniest, it's the most horrible situation looking for a job at times. And and it's about making making it a little bit of fun and a little bit of a joke. And yeah, try and gamifying it's too too unserious. It's got to still be serious, but you've got to try and put a smile on your face while you do it. So

and keep it agile. Keep it open, keep it agile and let you know let people make their decisions where they want to go. And then tell us and we'll help adapt it and adopt it and pop it in. And I if I can just control the nucleus and everyone says, Can you do this? Can you do that? Yeah, well just bring it all on board as long as it's

Ange Dove (29:11)

Yeah. And you're just listening to what they're asking for and then you can deliver some more of that, right? So yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (29:17)

Yeah, absolutely. but if there's any any stupidity around it, then that's no. Yeah. We're still serious. It's a very, very serious thing. And I I

Ange Dove (29:29)

But you take it lighthearted in terms of delivery, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (29:32)

Take it lightheart, because you have to have a bit of a joke about things. You've got to let that steam off somewhere. But

Ange Dove (29:38)

well I c I can give you a little story of an interview I had for a job. This was this was yeah, I can't have a biscuit. I had an interview for one of the banks in the UK. This was when I left school. So that was my first job was in working in a bank. So I went to this actually the two parts to this story actually, this I'll never forget this one this day, 'cause I went and I think it was the second of January, if I'm not wrong, New Year.

Barnaby Andrews (29:40)

No, please.

Well I well I just nibble on one of my biscuits, if you don't mind.

Ange Dove (30:08)

Think that's what it was. But anyway, I was getting ready for the interview at home and my sister came in, she burst into my bedroom and she went, The drummer from Led Zeppelins died. And I said, Yeah, he's been dead for years. She said, no, sorry, Def Leopard. And he hadn't died, he he was in a car crash and he there's that's the time he lost his arm. So I don't know if you know the drummer from

Barnaby (30:36.971)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (30:37)

Deaf leper when he lost his arm. So that was the day that that happened. So that I went to the interview with that on my mind, right? Because they were my favorite group at the time. So that's just beside the point. But anyway, I got to the interview and one of the questions she asked me was, if I was to ask your best friend about you, what would she say?

I was like, I have a best friend who's just straightforward, right? That would just say, you know, whatever's on her mind and I'd said, she just told me to shut up. That's all I could think of to say. And she started laughing, right? So then that kind of lightened the mood and everything. So it was it turned out to be quite a good interview. I got the job, so

Barnaby Andrews (31:21)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (31:26)

There you go. And and look humor go humour goes a a little bit

Ange Dove (31:30)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (31:31)

The other thing that you people must understand is that it's it's two-way traffic as well, Ange. And I think so much emphasis is is placed on somebody looking for the job being I mean, we've all been there at some stage in our lives. We I've got to get that job because I've got to pay the bills and I've got to get that job. That's fine. But when you're actually perhaps more passively or or can be a little bit more selective.

Ange Dove (31:38)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (31:51)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (31:58)

y you don't have to go for that first one and you don't have to be they still want you. So I think a lot of people don't understand that pi businesses without good people are are feeling just as scared as the good people without a business. And I think the days where we call it a business now and a candidate are getting close to a level playing field where

Ange Dove (32:11)

Mm.

Ange Dove (32:17)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (32:27.086)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (32:28)

I again personal take, I still think I think it's people. So instead of saying, you go for an interview, it should be look, why don't you guys get together, have a meeting of minds. Just have a meet and just talk and be open instead of some of these crazy questions like you know, we've all interviewed the silly ones that you don't need to. and then yeah

Ange Dove (32:39)

Nice. Yes. Yeah.

Ange Dove (32:45)

Yeah, stupid questions they ask sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (32:55)

So so this is what I'm trying to tackle. And it's not everyone says it's quite an easy thing to do. It's not because you're dealing with emotion, you're de you're dealing with so many different

Ange Dove (32:58)

Mm-hmm.

Barnaby Andrews (33:09)

The facets of the human psyche and everything. It's just that it's too difficult all in one go. But you can narrow it down just to think, right, if I was desperately looking for wood, if I wanted this, what would happen? I'd I'd want just something to tell me about point the rudder in that direction and that's it. And I'm while I'm on the way, teach me how to go a little bit quicker.

Ange Dove (33:11)

Right.

Ange Dove (33:17)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (33:28)

Hmm. Mm.

Ange Dove (33:32)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (33:33)

Or so not teach me. Give me advice. Give me all the information I need, how to make my stroke better. Or case if you're going to the gym, it's a little bit like that. Train your body or train yourself to be the best person that you can be. You know, we're never we're not all going to be bodybuilders, but we can all still be fit and healthy the best that we can. So what I've tried to do with this end and this is the way I I love it and it the feedback's been really cool.

Ange Dove (33:40)

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (33:48)

Right.

Ange Dove (33:52)

Yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (34:02)

Is to acknowledge that AI is there, it's not going anywhere. It's absolutely it's messed up our whole systems. And hiring is broken. And anyone that skirts around it, it's broken. I'll happily have a long day conversation with them where it's not, but it is, it's broken. And it's what we do about it now that counts. And sitting here thinking we can push out another

Ange Dove (34:13)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (34:23)

Right.

Barnaby Andrews (34:30)

job board or put out another way to search for ideal candidates. It's not gonna work. And that's unfortunately only a few of them are led by people that have been in the industry a long time. Other than that, now the new ones rolling out are just coders and people who think there's a big load of money to make there because they've solved the ever-eluding problem that machines can read people's minds.

Ange Dove (34:45)

Right.

Ange Dove (34:53)

Right.

Ange Dove (34:57)

Yeah. Yeah. But that's it is so difficult to f to to s sort through candidates as well, and just because you can't you can't understand them from what's on a piece of paper, right? The the C V and that that's hard enough. But there's and it's I don't know, for me when I've hired, it's always been somebody has said something that you think it's written in their application or whatever, or they've they've

one followed the instructions they were given, that was one thing. Right. But then but also that they just said something that just made me think, Ooh, okay, that's different from what I'm hearing from ev everybody else. Right. They sound like they've got their head on their shoulders. Right. So it's always looking for someone someone that will I suppose want to do just that little bit more. I'm not not saying you like that you're the the you they're gonna be a slave to the job or anything. I'm just that they will contribute.

Barnaby Andrews (35:41)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (35:55)

I think that's what I'm trying to say, that you're you're looking for people that will contribute to to make the business better. Right.

Barnaby Andrews (36:02)

And it's s sometimes that can be cultural as well. Some cultures are very heavily into you pay me for however many hours and I'm off. The second that bell goes, I'm off. I'm gone. And whereas other cultures it's

Ange Dove (36:06)

Mm.

Ange Dove (36:14)

Yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (36:22)

Is it culture? I don't even think it's culture. It's just that mindset where people will just go, I'll stay another half hour now. And it swings around it, comes back. And and I think most employers want that flexibility just a little bit. And they're not expecting to overwork people. They you know, they just want to like somebody to finish a project in the next twenty minutes rather than say, I've got to go home, I'll do it tomorrow.

Ange Dove (36:25)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (36:29)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ange Dove (36:43)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I there was a girl that I used to work with in the bank in Sheffield, actually. Every day she would pack up her desk and if she's packing up her desk. I'm going home, I've done my time. That's what she was saying. So it's like, Right, this is it, I'm off, my time is done. Right. And it was like equating the work with a prison, right? 'Cause I was like I don't that is the

Barnaby Andrews (36:51)

No. Well

Ange Dove (37:13)

The song is what's the song? Tie a yellow ribbon round an old oak tree. Do you remember that? Yeah. So it's that about a guy coming out of prison and he's wondering if he's gonna see the yellow ribbons as he gets home. Right. So and so this but she she would sing this song, I'm going home, I've done my time, as if like I've just been let out of prison now for the day. So but she was brilliant to work with. She was fantastic.

Barnaby Andrews (37:18)

yeah, yeah, yes. I vaguely.

Barnaby Andrews (37:42)

I th yeah, and it's it is a hard one to to cover. and when anybody asks me about AI, I will very happily stick to it and say, Yeah, it's broken it. And I don't think it's AI is the reason why, I think it's the human response to it, the knee jerk reactions, the way that it's just come through. But we're yeah, we're in a an uncanny situation right now.

Ange Dove (38:10)

I I think as yeah, because it is so uncertain and nobody really knows how where it's going, what's gonna happen, and as I said, there's no guardrails, there's no rules, as you say, really. There are no rules on how you use it and where you should be using it and what are the consequences down the line. We don't know, right? All I know like for myself, now that I look at how writing is done, because that was my job for twenty years, and I just have to accept

It's changed, right? The way you write has changed now because you've got this tool. And it's just to the point where sometimes I was talking to someone this morning about how we've kind of got lazy because you've got AI there. And someone asked me to write a short four sentence bio for myself to go on to their podcast. And I just

Okay, I'll ask Chat G V T 'cause I couldn't be bothered to write it myself. I've gotta think of both sentences. So it's this over reliance as well on the tech. Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (39:10)

no.

Barnaby Andrews (39:15)

Yeah, there can be. It's and I think we're all a little guilty of that. But even even spell check in the old days. You'd still do that. Just just because you were a little lazy and didn't want to make sure you'd f You'd do a spell check. So it's still

Ange Dove (39:24)

Mm.

Ange Dove (39:29)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (39:32)

But yeah, this yeah, I mean this this it's a good this is a good point. It's like we used to have to know how to spell. And now we don't anymore because word will correct it for you, right? And so that that used to be that used to be a thing where I've now forgotten how to spell certain words and I have to actually go and check, right? Because it's like if you don't use it, you lose it. This whole thing. So

Barnaby Andrews (39:58)

I was I was I was taught one word at school and it was necessary. And I remember the teach I remember the teacher, Mrs. Mrs. Taylor, never eat cake, eat sardine sandwiches and remain young. Stuck with me forever. Never never eat cake, eat sardine sandwiches and remain young. And I will never forget that. So I never spell necessary wrong. But if you ask me to

Ange Dove (40:05)

yeah.

Ange Dove (40:12)

What was that? What was that? Never one.

Ange Dove (40:26)

Wrong.

Barnaby Andrews (40:27)

If you asked me to just write it, I'd put the C's there and the S's there and I'd be like, but yeah. Yeah, I'd put it to GPT.

Ange Dove (40:33)

Then then you can check it with your little phrase. But that's that's yeah. But that's amazing as well how things like that stick in your memory, right? Because it's it's been taught to you right. You know, that you've actually associated that spelling rule with a a phrase that your teacher has told you. This was the same, like for my daughter one time. I I went to see

Jo Tony Buzan, he he invented the mind map.

Barnaby Andrews (41:05)

I yeah, I remember reading I I don't remember much about it. I do remember reading his book, I think some stage. Is go, yeah.

Ange Dove (41:07)

Yeah. Right. This book, right? So he came he came to Singapore and he did a talk and he did demonstrations on ex like how to use your brain, how to remember things with association by associating that memory with something else so that you'd remember it down the line kind of thing. So and then his mind maps are very much based on that visual.

component of learning things because you see things visually. Not many people remember things when it's just prose on a on a piece of paper, right? Just lines and lines of text. Nobody's gonna r remember anything from that. But then you see things visually, it's it's easier. So at this time and then he was there, I think I've got a children's book on it as well. And I taught my daughter when she was young, and she was doing something on the Battle of Hastings. Right? History.

So even today, if I asked her today information on the Battle of Hastings because she had mind mapped it out, she'll s she still remembers that stuff today. Right? If she'd just read a history book that that would have gone been gone. Right. So yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (42:14)

Isn't it?

Barnaby Andrews (42:21)

Yeah, it's it's it's funny. And like I say, for me it's it's the future generations. I worry that they're gonna miss out. but it's

Ange Dove (42:28)

Hmm. Hmm.

I think the sense of purpose is gone in a way. I think they're they don't know what what is there for them. It's kind of what's the point? What's the purpose?

Barnaby Andrews (42:45)

Yeah, and I don't know who's who's or what is responsible for that. again that's down to the the people that do the studies, but it's a shame because we there's a it's a beautiful planet we have and there's so much to see. Australia, Singapore, everywhere is beautiful. And I think maybe we want everyone wants too much out of life. You know, it's not all about

the big fast super mega cars and yeah.

Ange Dove (43:19)

well that's yeah, that's one of the downsides of social media, right? The comparison trap, right? Of you see and then these lifestyles are not real most of the time. And you know, and they're things that okay, even if they are real before social media, you wouldn't have got to see them. Right. So you wouldn't have known. So

Barnaby Andrews (43:24)

Yeah and

Barnaby Andrews (43:40)

Yeah, it's and I think like you said then you wouldn't and everything's so on hand and readily available to see. It's sort of your world is there on a screen if you want it.

Ange Dove (43:46)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (43:52)

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Very true. Very true. So we're running out of time now. That's 45 minutes gone very quickly. Yeah. But just tell us then where where we can send people to learn about Brinkle and

Barnaby Andrews (44:05)

Wow, okay.

Ange Dove (44:15)

When are you going to I don't know if you've got the information about when to launch it, but I think it might be launched by the time this podcast goes live. So

Barnaby Andrews (44:24)

So if you go to brinkle.com, that will have everything on there. So we will more than likely be fully live then. if not there's a holding page. but it's gotta be right when we get going. It's gotta be really right because but we want to do it correctly and properly. Otherwise, go to my website, barnabyandrews.com, and that'll you get a bit of history about me. It's not a big read, it's just a sort of

Ange Dove (44:27)

Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (44:35)

Okay. Right.

Okay.

Ange Dove (44:44)

Right.

Barnaby Andrews (44:53)

Ugly picture of me and a few little facts that I like coffee and Maltese more than most people. But it's tr it's it's true. I there's nothing better than a box of well, it's probably gonna get to two boxes now because it's the way I go through them. It's like so it's I don't know. But yeah, they can get hold of me on that. But I think my biggest my biggest thing for everybody is is

Ange Dove (44:54)

Okay.

I was gonna ask you about the Maltetics.

Ange Dove (45:11)

Ha ha

Barnaby Andrews (45:21)

Yeah, everyone's aware how difficult it is out there at the moment. And it's gonna take some big strides from people who are are aware of that, they can actually do something about it and want to do something about it. And I think

Ange Dove (45:24)

Mm, mm.

Ange Dove (45:32)

Right. So so who are who are you looking for to actually join this community then? What's the target market here?

Barnaby Andrews (45:39)

So what it's people who are looking for t to build a career. Either their career is going it's stagnated or they've lost their job. Or even if they just want to come into and build a career. So it's so so what with this what we're building, what you can actually do is you take on board everything.

Ange Dove (45:55)

Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (46:06)

Mm. Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (46:08)

But at the same time, you can also map your career. So that's important. And then what you'll be able to do, which is the genius part, is any any tidbits or anything that you think is going to be great towards you, bettering yourself. So I I literally personally, so it's taking a lot of what I do as well, and a lot of what my friends and colleagues do. Is if I see something I think is going to better me, like I I want to listen to a podcast or something, I just

Ange Dove (46:11)

Mm.

Ange Dove (46:35)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (46:36)

save it into notion or put it into Notion's my easiest one. I save it all into Notion and then I'll go back and look at it. So what we're gonna do is give people the the space to be able to do that. But in a struct in a structured manner so they go, so you're not saving thousands, but it's you can save the ones that you think are going to be really suitable for you. And then you can drop those in.

Ange Dove (46:57)

So they've got just one place to go to to reference it all then. Yeah. Yeah. Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (47:00)

That's ideally for for one person to go to, and it's their little career structure that can help them. and

Ange Dove (47:06)

Mm.

Barnaby Andrews (47:12)

I like it. I love the idea. It's do you know I seriously, I know we've got to go in a second, but when you just come across something you've been trying to do for so long and I remember just sat there and I was just I remember looking just looking up at the the sky thinking that's that's gonna Yeah, I like that one. And then I just did a a a brutal run it through a load of business colleagues.

Ange Dove (47:13)

No.

Ange Dove (47:24)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (47:42)

Who are always hiring people, a lot of people looking for work, and their children that are looking for work as well, or their partners. And it was like, yeah, that's that's that's good. Don't overprice it, they said. I said, No, no, it's it's cheap enough because we've got to we've got to pay our bills, but this is about offering the correct solution for people that have a problem. And I think too many people think they've sold too many people present a solution

Ange Dove (47:45)

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (47:59)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (48:06)

Right.

Barnaby Andrews (48:12)

Where there isn't necessarily a problem. And they'll make they will make a problem. They'll go, we've developed this, and if you don't have this, you're gonna be terrible. You know, so now you've got to buy the newest phone because otherwise you look terrible to your mates, or whatever. this is a little bit this is the reverse. This is a little bit like y you know, chill out in your own time. Hopefully the app will do it, but it's not about an app thing.

Ange Dove (48:15)

Mm.

Mm. Okay.

Ange Dove (48:28)

Yeah. Yeah. All that pressure.

Barnaby Andrews (48:40)

app thing is all about saving stuff that's great but it's where you sit down and and actually take serious note right okay this is where I want to go so it's but it's not necessarily for people that just want to get a quick job this is more about right I want to build my career I want to know where I'm going and it could be any career that you want absolutely anything but I just need to know where I'm going where my track is

Ange Dove (48:48)

Right.

Ange Dove (48:53)

Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (49:09)

And one central pool, one central hub that could not control it, give them the ability to do that. So there's no control, there's no there's no media, we're not gonna spam people or anything like that. You'd just get a a weekly not even a newsletter. I hate newsletters. So it's they all get so we we're trying to just form something where it doesn't really look like a newsletter, but it is a newsletter. I think like having lots of owls fly down and deliver them like Harry Potter. I don't know, I've got no idea. But

We'll we're trying to think of something. So if anyone's got any ideas, please drop them onto the site. That would be very helpful. but now if you are watching this seriously, we are just looking to help people. we've all been in a bad situation and if you're looking at changing your career, don't have a look at it as bad. It's it's opportunity more than anything else. It's

Ange Dove (49:42)

Ha ha ha.

Ange Dove (50:04)

I think there are so many people that are looking for a change, right? They're looking for a direction. In in different phases of life you you you have different needs and this community would fit everybody's need, I guess, for which

Barnaby Andrews (50:17)

Yeah, and it's a it's about empowerment. It's not about knocking people down. It's not about going there's nothing worse than getting your re your your resume rejected. It's gonna happen. And the systems at the moment haven't changed well enough. I wish I could change them. Where but you can't. And the the stupidest of systems where you can't get your resume to the person you want to, because th this whole blockage won't allow you to.

Ange Dove (50:20)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (50:26)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (50:32)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (50:45)

Yes. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (50:47)

is is hurting businesses as well and that's what they don't realise. It's hurting the businesses. Exactly. So we go back to the whole process is wrong. Then you've got to look at the process again. So it's it's a myriad of different things, but the only thing I can help with right now is just to get people to say, right, come on guys, we can do it. We we we can work.

Ange Dove (50:49)

Yeah. 'Cause it's opportunity cost for businesses as well, 'cause they're not getting access to the right people. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (51:16)

Together. I can guide you, I can put you in the right place, the right people. Show you things to watch and then listen and just stretch your brains out a little bit. That's not reading the same old crap we greet every day. I've done well, I haven't sworn. That was p partially one of the words. So I'm I I've kept it straightforward this time. yeah. So yes,

Ange Dove (51:16)

Mm.

Ange Dove (51:36)

Well we'll we'll leave it there then before you do go all potty mouth in

So Brinkle so brinkle dot com is where they should go. If it's not live at the time when they go, there's a a sign up page, right, for them to express interest, right?

Barnaby Andrews (51:53)

Yeah, you can just go into that and you can go for a a free newsletter which will just we'll sign up and get you everything. You'll see what's going on. And then just follow us and just keep on watching because it's gonna be pretty epic. And I can't wait.

Ange Dove (51:58)

Right.

Yeah.

Ange Dove (52:09)

Nice. So let's mend those rules. Yeah.

Barnaby Andrews (52:12)

Break them first then mend them. Out of the way. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you, Edge. It's been a pleasure. Take care now. Goodbye.

Ange Dove (52:18)

Yes, thank you so much, Vannabi. It's been lovely talking to you today. Yeah.