The Art of Hiring: Finding the Right Fit

Ange Dove (00:01)

Okay, welcome to You're the Boss podcast show. And today I have a very special guest with me, Jeremy Young, and he's going to be talking to us today about the wonders of ads and why you should be doing them. Hi, Jeremy, welcome to the show.

Jeremy Yang (00:16)

Hi, great to be here. Great to be here, Ange.

Ange Dove (00:20)

Yeah. So Jeremy, I understand that you run an ad agency in Sydney and you're focusing on Google and meta ads for small businesses and you're working really on lead gen for companies lead generation, e-commerce brands and course creators. So I think you're the exact person we need to talk about as we're talking about all of this. So tell me a little bit for yeah, for small businesses. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (00:41)

Yeah, a lot of small businesses. So a lot of time for small businesses, yeah.

Ange Dove (00:49)

Yeah, okay. So let me know first of all, if you can just tell us a little bit about yourself, your background and how you started in business yourself.

Jeremy Yang (00:58)

Yeah, sure. No worries. So I was, um, when I left school, I had a completely different business. I was in the, I was a tradie. Do you familiar with tradies? So we drove around in a van. used to install TV satellites for living, did that for 13 years. So, and then my dad was a university professor back in China. Right. So there's always like, I think a bit of shame that his son never finished high school because I dropped out of school.

Ange Dove (01:05)

Alright. Yes.

Ange Dove (01:10)

okay.

Ange Dove (01:16)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (01:22)

Okay. Uh-huh.

Jeremy Yang (01:23)

So anyway, 13 years in the antenna business and I felt like there's a ceiling to that. It's only so much you can earn, right? Because weather dependent and everything else. So I went back to uni to fulfill that thing. So I've left a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. think, I think it was making good money at the time was about 15, 20 years ago. So there's a lot of, a lot of money at the time. I left that to go back to uni full time. So I only had a bit of savings. I went back to full time. Um, didn't really know what I wanted to do. Just wanted to get a degree.

Ange Dove (01:28)

Right.

Ange Dove (01:32)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (01:45)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jeremy Yang (01:53)

And then as I was doing that, when you do a, a regular business degree, you know how you have the four subjects and all that. the one that stood out was, marketing because of course everyone around me was so bad at it. I didn't want to talk. Didn't want to stand up. So coming out of that, so I did very well because I was doing full time. Cause I thought it was like a full time thing, but it's not full time uni is a joke. Right. So I came out of that. came out of that. I'm thinking I got a perfect GPA. thought I was set.

Ange Dove (02:03)

Okay.

You

Jeremy Yang (02:23)

I thought career, career, change complete midlife crisis complete, right? Like I've going to get an excellent. So started off pretty well. they were marching me around all the banks and all the insurance jobs, cause that's where they want the high scorers. But because I was such a mature age student, I was already 32, 33 at the time. And everyone else was a fresh grad and you know, lot more energy, different energy. didn't want me. So I couldn't get any paid internships. I couldn't, couldn't get any unpaid internships.

Ange Dove (02:37)

Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (02:46)

Yeah.

Okay. wow. Okay.

Jeremy Yang (02:54)

So that was really bad. And then I ended up, doing a 12 month unpaid internship and, and now they've made that illegal in Australia, but that's how long it was. That's how grueling it was. Right. And, and that, that's what I did. And then, but you had to get your foot in the door. Yeah. So you had to get your in the door.

Ange Dove (02:56)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (03:03)

Okay, I should think so too. Wow, okay.

Right. But how did you manage that then working for a year for free? Were you drawing on savings or? Yeah? Right.

Jeremy Yang (03:18)

savings. Yeah. Save me 42,000 I had left. Yeah. 43,000 before I went in. So we're telling all the spend, I was telling all the spend to make sure I don't, you know, go over, but it was tough. There was times when I was working, walking past like Woolworths in Australia, you know, Woolworths and Coles like department stores, we'll try to work out like, should I start playing for jobs here? You know what I mean? Cause that's you, you're putting so many apps and you get rejected and you start wondering like, you know, was this the right move?

Ange Dove (03:28)

Right.

Ange Dove (03:33)

Mm. Mm, mm.

Ange Dove (03:39)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (03:48)

That's tough, right? That's really tough.

Jeremy Yang (03:48)

Yeah. Right. So I think we got to around it and I got, got accepted for the unpaid internship where you had to pay your own insurance. So you had to pay your shows to work there. So I'm sitting there thinking, this a scam? Like I'm paying like, buy my own insurance and I'll try to negotiate. Yeah. Why, why did you all this stuff? And I'll try to like negotiate. say, Hey, what's up with that, man? You know, like, cause I'm from the streets. I'm like, what's up with that, man? Like.

Ange Dove (03:55)

Mm.

Ange Dove (04:02)

Why did I go to university?

Ange Dove (04:12)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (04:15)

You just paid the hundreds, pay my insurance. Like I'm working for you. They're like, nah, you want it or not? I say, anyway, it's like, all right, cool. I paid it. Um, I went in there and the guy next to me, I said, you pay any insurance. goes, So everyone here did no one, none of us here getting paid. I said, all right, cool. Yeah. So, so from that, you start working on marketing tasks and that's how you get a foot in the door and coming out of that, um, bouncing around marketing roles until one.

Ange Dove (04:23)

Wow.

Ange Dove (04:38)

Right.

Jeremy Yang (04:45)

Copywriter just like you a copywriter was internal, but we're working for a company. And he said, Jeremy, you are so impatient. want everything to work straight away. Cause marketing takes too long. Right. Cause I came from small, small business world. So everything takes like, when you tell me something takes six and a month, I look at it from my, as a tradie day. said, man, I'm not waiting six and a month. I'm not paying SEO, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Correct. Yeah.

Ange Dove (04:47)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (05:05)

Mmm.

Yeah, so marketing, marketing is all about sowing that seed and waiting for things to happen, right? It's not sales, right? So yeah.

Jeremy Yang (05:16)

I agree. I agree. So I was like really impatient and he goes to me that the only place you're going to find things move that quick is media buying. And I had no idea what media buying was. So it was like media buying. So I got connected with somebody who does media buying for a living and I went to her. So she still lives in Sydney. So she teaches it right. Just like how you have courses and teaching and memberships and stuff. So she does that and she does a

Ange Dove (05:25)

Right.

Ange Dove (05:43)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (05:45)

Some agency work, right. And so I was in there and I was like, employee. She's like the phone only person that started paying me correctly. That actually paid me correctly, uh, at a, at a rate where, you know, it's made sense for the business, but also made sense where I wasn't working begrudgingly kind of thing. Like always wondering like, well, what, what is this? Um, and then she taught me really well. So for 11 months, I was just working for her. I thought I was going to work for forever. And then she said that, you know, Jeremy, can see.

Ange Dove (05:52)

Mm.

They actually paid you to do it. Okay.

Ange Dove (06:04)

Yeah, yeah.

Ange Dove (06:11)

Mm. Mm.

Jeremy Yang (06:15)

what you're doing and I'm not going to build a big agency. So there's eventually you're to get kept out. So why don't I help you set up agency? I didn't call agency. mean, this for your audience, like, don't even know what agencies are student and what it is because I just, I've collected a bunch of specialists. That's what, that's what I've done. that, does ads. So she said, well, I'll help you start your business. Let's arrange something. I don't transfer some clients to you. I said, all right, cool.

Ange Dove (06:23)

Right.

Ange Dove (06:27)

nice.

Yeah.

Ange Dove (06:34)

Right.

Okay.

Ange Dove (06:43)

that's good. So you've got free coaching basically for that. So it's not your own business.

Jeremy Yang (06:45)

Yeah, I got, I got free coaching. Um, yeah, sorry. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. Um, so yeah, so I got, I got some coaching. got 11 months with, uh, her. She's still talking. I still talk to all the time. Um, and then that was seven years ago, just before COVID. That was good. That was good because I was, because I was such a bad copywriter. Cause if you remember back then, seven years ago, copywriting, you know, you really need skill. wasn't any AI.

Ange Dove (06:59)

no.

Ange Dove (07:12)

You actually had to write in those days

Jeremy Yang (07:14)

I had to write and, know, was, and if you ran back then coaches were doing like convoluted long funnels and story mode forever, right? Like this page, that page, I was going to do that. So I was in e-commerce because the page is written already. Right. So it was all about, you know, setting up button clicking, maintaining was more math then, cause marginal says slim. So when marginal is slim, got to be maintaining and monitoring, things on and off. So I guess.

Ange Dove (07:21)

huh, huh, yeah, yeah.

Ange Dove (07:35)

Right. Okay.

Ange Dove (07:42)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (07:43)

You gravitate like I gravitated towards that side instead of the copywriting side. Cause on the copywriting side, just say when you got a sale, the money was massive. So the, the learning page conversion rate, all of that was all based on how well your content is. Yeah. The copy, right. But on the other side, it's all about like how much value you can bring without, you know, stuffing up the margins.

Ange Dove (07:48)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (08:00)

Mm, that's healthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ange Dove (08:10)

Mm. Mm.

Jeremy Yang (08:10)

Right. Cause your fees has to be low. it's part of the margin. I built my thing on the back of COVID and the strength of e-commerce. Yeah. So that, that was, that was a wave.

Ange Dove (08:13)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (08:18)

Right. Okay. Okay. And also, I suppose, because during COVID, mean, Australia was really locked down, right? You couldn't leave, right? Singapore, between Singapore and the UK, because I could actually travel. In Singapore, it was, you could after the first two months, it was locked down for two months, from what I can remember. And then we could go about business as usual, we could go out.

Jeremy Yang (08:29)

Yeah, pretty tough. Yeah. Where were you at that time? And how was it?

Jeremy Yang (08:43)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (08:48)

go anywhere, but we had to wear a mask the whole time. I think we were the last country in the world not to take off the mask. Yeah, and then we were tracked everywhere. There was a government app and every building you went into, you were tracked. So if there was an outbreak, they could identify who was in the area, right, at the time. QR codes. Yeah, yeah, and then you got used to scanning these QR codes.

Jeremy Yang (08:49)

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (08:55)

okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. Now it was pretty hectic here. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (09:01)

think we had that. Yeah, we had that. Yeah. QR code. The QR codes, right? That's the way it came out. Yeah. Everyone was scanning codes. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, at that time.

Ange Dove (09:17)

So that was, yeah, that was the way it was. So I think we had quite a normal time of it, except for the fact that we had to wear masks and get scanned, right? Yeah. But I think during COVID then, this gave you the chance to really hone your skills, right? Because you could work from anywhere, right? You could work while you're locked down. It doesn't stop you running your business, whereas it stopped a lot of people running theirs.

Jeremy Yang (09:27)

Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Yang (09:34)

Big time. Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (09:40)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it was pretty bad for some people.

Ange Dove (09:44)

landscape gardeners or whatever, right, they wouldn't be able to go out. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (09:47)

No, no, I think for, for us, I think it was just so many people were sitting around. Uh, there was a lot of government money handed out in Australia. So people had nothing to do, but sit online, buy courses, do like, had the tension. Yeah. Had the tension. You couldn't do a step wrong. That's, that's exactly right. At that time, I swear you couldn't, you couldn't put a foot like in hindsight, looking back seven years later, you're like, man, somebody's accounts would not work now.

Ange Dove (09:52)

Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah.

And then you had the attention. You had the attention. And nowadays that's gone again.

Jeremy Yang (10:14)

They had no chance. had no chance of surviving, but we made it work. like, um, how do I say it? Like, know how mortgage brokers, right? I just present mortgage brokers. Okay. I'm giving this an edge. I don't know if, if, if it's going to land or not. So by the time someone goes to a mortgage broker, there's something wrong with their situation. Like otherwise they just walk into a bank. Right. You know, they just get a loan normally. Right. Okay. So if people came to me like a kid.

Ange Dove (10:19)

Yeah, yeah.

Ange Dove (10:24)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (10:34)

Mm. Right. OK. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (10:41)

That wasn't that established now. But back then, like it was a hard account. Do you know what mean? It wasn't a walk in the park. Like there was stuff wrong with that. was, there, they've, they've been like booted by other people. They've been told they can't make money like this. So it was hard, hard, but now it'll be almost impossible. You had to, had to, you had to make it work. Yeah. So yeah, that's my backstory. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (10:47)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (10:51)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (10:57)

Right. So you had to prove yourself, right? You had to try and make it work, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So that's how it all started. Wow. Okay. So you could say actually your business started due to your impatience. Wanting things to work. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So that took you over to doing...

Jeremy Yang (11:13)

Yeah, yeah. Due to my, not, not willingness to wait for, for, Yeah.

Ange Dove (11:25)

ads, so Google ads and Facebook ads. Did you start one first or did you go into both of them at the same time?

Jeremy Yang (11:32)

I think both of had to be the same time. think the important is of mixing the two with the budget. I think that's super important. I think it was good that I was taught both at the same time, because people kind of lean one way and then they kind of like back one horse instead of the other. But in reality, I think that the budget they give for media buying should be fluid. One should be able to maneuver both ways. Yeah.

Ange Dove (11:39)

Okay. Okay.

Ange Dove (11:46)

Mm.

Ange Dove (11:56)

Okay, all right. Yeah. Okay. So I know, like, for example, from my understanding, the biggest difference between the two is Google is more intent based, they're already looking, and they want the service, they're just trying to find who can provide it. Whereas Facebook is more disruptive, right? It comes into your feed, you didn't ask it, you didn't ask for it, but it's then if it's something that attracts your attention, you're likely to click.

Jeremy Yang (12:10)

Yes.

Jeremy Yang (12:15)

Yes.

disruptive advertising. Yeah, correct. Yep.

Ange Dove (12:26)

Right? So OK, so let's backtrack a little bit before we go into the ins and outs of Facebook and Google. And let's just cover, first of all, why people should, why businesses should pay for ads, as opposed to going the organic route and just putting posts out on social media and hoping something clicks.

Jeremy Yang (12:26)

Yeah, correct.

Jeremy Yang (12:31)

Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

Jeremy Yang (12:47)

Yeah. So when you pay for ads, once you have something that you, that's already profitable, I will say that, right? There's two, two, two reasons why they will pay, pay for ads. think number one is to get a lot of data in very quickly to test a concept, to see if it's going to work. It's going to take too long for organic to work because organic these platforms that they don't build for organic. So they try to curb the reach and there's always a mystery. What's working. It's always, I them.

Ange Dove (13:05)

Mm. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (13:16)

algorithm whispers that people come in and they think they know like, Oh, if you do this, you don't know, man, you're not, you're not behind it. You don't know. So, but when it comes to ads, they absolutely tell you how to install it to make you get more impressions, clicks, et cetera. Cause that's where they make the money. They want you to be getting a ride, but the other one it's like free. Why would they give away a hack to you? Like, they don't want to tell you that. So you got to figure it out. And when too many people figure it out, they just change it.

Ange Dove (13:33)

Right.

Ange Dove (13:39)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (13:45)

because too many people figured it out, right? Like hashtag game, emoji game. They used to have a pod game in LinkedIn where they kind of, get 10 other people, randoms, and then you kind of post and you go, yeah, I've posted guys and you got to like each other and all that. I don't know if that still works. Yeah. So all that stuff is like, it's just touch and go. I think at some point in time, if you'd been doing that for so long, you kind of get sick of it. Right. So yeah.

Ange Dove (13:54)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (13:58)

They go in the light, Yeah, yeah.

Ange Dove (14:08)

Yeah, and then they spot the patterns, right? So then they'll change the algorithms, right?

Jeremy Yang (14:12)

They'll change it and what will happen is ads will just always be the first one. Always take priority. So yeah, I think if you have something to test, definitely, that's the first time you do it. The second one is when you have something that's worked, you got to throw, like gasoline on the fire. Yeah, that that's a really good way to do it. Cause, advantages get competed away. So if you have a window, you need to get aggressive and attack.

Ange Dove (14:19)

Mmm.

Ange Dove (14:31)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (14:38)

Mm. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (14:42)

Unless of course you like you literally bootstrapping have no money, right? And you're doing a day job and you're like, man, I need every cent. Like I can't invest in this. that's a different story. Yeah.

Ange Dove (14:52)

Yes, I agree. So yeah, definitely don't invest in ads if you don't have the money at all. But I always advise people as soon as you have some extra budget and you can throw it to ads, then invest in ads because you get results straight away. As you say, you'll know if it's going to work and you'll get your customers and you're not guessing, the customers are there, they're coming to you, right?

Jeremy Yang (14:57)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (15:02)

Hmm. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (15:08)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (15:15)

Yeah. Or lack of results straight away. And like, you know, like if you like what you do with the offer and branding and copywriting, right. So sometimes you could go like three different ways, right. You could go, I'm going to do a, you know, this special offer this way, or I'm going to do two others. Like you can get two free months and one, whatever. Right. And then the person can get tested.

Ange Dove (15:27)

Hmm.

Ange Dove (15:30)

Mm.

Jeremy Yang (15:41)

So if they're to get tested organically, they got to wait like three, four months to figure it out. But in ads you're testing three weeks, one per week. So which one resonates then double down much, much quicker. Yeah.

Ange Dove (15:47)

Yeah. Wow. OK. OK. Right. So definitely the reason to do ads then is you get results quicker. You can see if it's working or not. And if it is working, you're going to get the customers in. So like when I set up my ads, so I only did Google Ads when I first started my business. And when I did Google Ads

Jeremy Yang (16:10)

Yep.

Ange Dove (16:17)

Right from the very beginning, I got people coming to that they'd click and they'd come and they'd fill in my form. And then I would call them and then I would go for a physical meeting and meet them. And then I would always click. If it was a physical meeting, I always close the deal. So this really worked really well for me. So that's the one thing I did for paid. And then I tried Facebook ads for a little while with the business still with copywriting. And I did get, I did get

Jeremy Yang (16:22)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (16:34)

Hmm.

Jeremy Yang (16:43)

Yep.

Ange Dove (16:46)

results but it was a completely different audience. It tended to be more small businesses and at that time I was really focusing on MNCs.

Jeremy Yang (16:50)

or wording.

Jeremy Yang (16:58)

Yeah. Okay. Cool. So smaller businesses. Yeah. A lot of people complain about the quality of meta ads, Facebook, Instagram ads. Yeah. It's a, it's a common theme. think one of the things is like when businesses start with meta ads, especially if they switch from Google, um, they get quite like turned off or like they get quite emotional about it because it's, it's like, say, Oh, what's going on here? You know what the guy said to me? There's a lot of that. Right. But I think eventually.

Ange Dove (17:04)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (17:27)

But eventually, I mean, if you take emotion out of it and treat them like two different buckets of fish, one is just going to be a no answer. If you call them never started a business, don't even have a business, just wanted to know stuff. Fine. You have to have a way of taking that treatment. Right. And other one, you have to know where they came from. Okay. That's a Google. All right. Let's, you know, sit down. Let's do a bit of research before I call them. So you've got to treat them too differently, but once we will get used to it, they're okay again. Yeah.

Ange Dove (17:31)

Yeah.

Right.

Ange Dove (17:42)

Yeah.

Bye.

Ange Dove (17:53)

Yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. And you're so right as well. Don't get emotional in business because you can't run it by your emotions. You've got to look at the data. Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Yang (17:57)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (18:02)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're ruins the whole day. You know, know, it ruins the whole day. Like when they get a bad lead, it ruins the whole day. Like they talk about it for a long time.

Ange Dove (18:13)

You

So you've to do some inner work to brush that stuff off. This is not going to ruin my day today.

Jeremy Yang (18:18)

Hahaha!

Jeremy Yang (18:24)

Yeah. Yeah. Because advertising costs a lot of money. Right. So if it's like a plumber, it's like $30 a click or something, you know? So yeah.

Ange Dove (18:28)

Yeah, yeah. Mm, mm. Yeah. But this is the way I look at it, right? Is that before we had social media, businesses had to advertise, they had no other avenue, really, they'd have to advertise. So part of running a business was putting aside a budget for advertising, because that was just part of running a business.

Jeremy Yang (18:46)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (18:55)

Right. Then social media came along and you had this channel where you could reach everybody for free. And that became the norm. So people started thinking, well, I don't have to pay. I shouldn't have to pay. This is free. And then when Facebook listed and then started bringing in Facebook ads, then the realization was right now you have to pay to play. Right. But by then people were so used to having it for free that this mindset had kicked in that why should I pay?

Jeremy Yang (19:00)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (19:11)

Hmm.

Jeremy Yang (19:16)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (19:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (19:24)

So I think we have to go back to this belief of, I'm running a business, I'm being serious. Part of my budget needs to be allocated to growing the business through getting in front of people. the fastest way possible is ads, right?

Jeremy Yang (19:37)

I agree. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. A seriousness that is a keyword here. I got to take things seriously. Yeah. Cause there's a look, it's good to get organic reach and all that. That's freebies. Take it. If you're good at content, if you don't like mind it, take it. But the, the, the serious growth and goal hitting is gotta be around ads. Yeah.

Ange Dove (19:43)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ange Dove (19:49)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (19:58)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've to decide are you running a business or a hobby, right?

Jeremy Yang (20:02)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Is that a lot of stuff that there's a lot of conversations that you have with a lot, not a lot, but is that a conversation that you frequently have with your clients too? Okay.

Ange Dove (20:12)

Yeah, and I think as well when you have those conversations, really, and they realize, okay, in order for me to make this work, I need to take it seriously like a proper business. And then the whole mindset changes and their actions change and they've come a lot more intentional and things just get done. Whereas if it's a hobby kind of on the side, know, I'll do it tomorrow, right?

Jeremy Yang (20:36)

Yeah, but you know what? also think it's quite confronting if you, if you express everything, like if you express training, everything like three weeks, right. Everything you've been building. if it, you know, none of the three offers work. Right. Like I'll be excited about that. think you should too, because we can stop wasting time on it. Like let's go like figure out three more things. Right. But you know, that grind like, posted and say that, you know what mean? Like it's not the end year, you know, yeah.

Ange Dove (20:41)

Mm.

Ange Dove (20:49)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (20:57)

Mm-mm.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of business owners, their personality types anyway, are people who like to start things and not finish things. Yeah. So it's kind I've got the idea, let's go. And then they get bored and move on to something else if it's not working straight away, right? Or they forget about it, right? Let's move on to something else. So that's kind of a personality trait, I think, of a lot of...

Jeremy Yang (21:14)

it's a grind so it keeps going yeah

Jeremy Yang (21:23)

Yeah, right. Okay. Cool. Got you.

Ange Dove (21:32)

business owners because they're just, have to have that kind of personality in a way to start a business. You're the ideas person, right? Yeah. So, so it's knowing and then knowing that that's who you are, then you've got to find someone that you can bring into your company that is the finisher, right? That will actually finish it for you.

Jeremy Yang (21:36)

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yep. Yeah. Cool.

Jeremy Yang (21:51)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think I know the way you're talking about the five types of work, working ways, you know, book. They talks about, yeah, there's like, some people that's very good at the start and the finish. Some people are good in the middles. Some people are good at rallying the team to, know, can let's work on something together, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (22:04)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (22:12)

Yeah, you have to know who's on your team and what their strengths are. And the worst thing I think I've seen people do in their business is trying to force people into roles because they're small and it's like, okay, we've only got so many people and you've got to do this, this, this and this. And they don't want to do that because that's not what they're good at. Right. So then they'll leave because they're not enjoying their job.

Jeremy Yang (22:14)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (22:21)

two different yeah

Jeremy Yang (22:26)

Yeah, man.

Mmm, yeah.

Jeremy Yang (22:34)

They could probably do it for a little bit, tiny bit. then, yeah, yeah. And then they kind of move on. Yeah.

Ange Dove (22:36)

Yeah, and then eventually they're going to go because it's just fighting against who they are naturally. So I always say to my students, don't put a square peg in a round hole. It's not going to work.

Jeremy Yang (22:42)

Yep.

Jeremy Yang (22:47)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had to learn that hardware as a, cause I'm like small business and you know, we hire a lot of people from overseas, right? You got to figure stuff out remotely, remotely. And, know, like the work culture and everything's very different being a lot of times, right? Cause if you're talking about like, I, I hire from the Philippines and then if you're talking about somebody from Philippines, you can't just give them a course or something and they go, you know, take it, do it, and then come back once finished. You can't, it's.

Ange Dove (22:56)

Okay, yeah, remotely, right.

Ange Dove (23:02)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (23:14)

But in, in, like the, like Australia or maybe UK, whatever, if you have someone with you, like natively there, like you could do that. You will go, go learn it and then, you know, figure it out. Then you're the man. Right. Like you learned the course, you come back, you're the man of the program. That's it. That's your area now, but over there, you can't do that. Yeah. So you kind of learn these things. So that's kind of like, agree. I mean, agreement with what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (23:19)

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Ange Dove (23:27)

Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (23:39)

Yeah, yeah, you do. You have to know who your people are and what they can do and what they can't. Figure that out as early as you can. OK, let's go back to the ads then. tell me, we mentioned just briefly that Google is like a warmer, you got a warmer audience because they're already looking at warmer, warmer audience. They're already looking. And then Facebook is you're just coming up on interrupting people's feeds.

Jeremy Yang (23:43)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Yang (23:47)

Yeah, for sure.

Jeremy Yang (24:00)

lower funnel. Yep. Yep.

Jeremy Yang (24:09)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (24:09)

with the idea that they've targeted you as thinking you may be interested, right? So can you talk about the two different ads for me and just walk that through?

Jeremy Yang (24:13)

Yes. Yep.

Yeah, sure. So let's just say that there's a service that's quite like, maybe fire protection, maybe fire protection service, right? They inspect buildings, et cetera. Right. So a business like that is almost perfect for Google because it's very weird. The word, like no one says those words unless they are looking for fire protection, right? Where someone says copywriter, there could be many things that could be wanting to be a copywriter.

Ange Dove (24:26)

Mm.

Ange Dove (24:34)

Mm.

Ange Dove (24:40)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (24:46)

They could looking for a cheap copywriter, right? And they could 100 things. So that is actually, it's, I'm happy that it worked for you. You'll be very difficult to make that word work now. Right. So.

Ange Dove (24:46)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (24:49)

Yep.

Ange Dove (24:58)

Okay. Well, it will do now because the audience need has changed because people aren't really looking for copywriters to provide services anymore. So most people now looking, this is what I found out with mine was most people looking for something to do with copywriting where they're looking for jobs or they were looking for information on how to be a copywriter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (25:06)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (25:10)

Hmm. Yep.

Jeremy Yang (25:21)

Yes. Okay. Yeah, that's even worse. So that's, that's like very bad for your, for your budget. So that would actually be more of a meta thing when you can't figure it out on Google, right? When it's ambiguity, you put on meta. Yeah, that's it. That's a big one. So Google.

Ange Dove (25:31)

Yeah, right. Okay. What about the negative keywords? Does that work? Because I like how it goes. Okay.

Jeremy Yang (25:42)

It works, but there's too many variations. so negative keywords is something that you enter into the engine to say, never show my ads for this word. Right. So we currently have a count and it's like, probably you're looking at maybe 200 different variations of a same phrase. People are typing differently. People was like, how do I get this out? It's you take forever to do it. Yes. There's AI algorithm. You can use it.

Ange Dove (25:51)

Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (26:00)

Right.

Ange Dove (26:05)

Right.

Jeremy Yang (26:08)

But some of us nuance, you have one wrong negative word, your whole account tanks. Yeah. Because if you say like, Copywriter and a suburb name. Right. And someone comes in, they don't know if the Singaporean suburb, they're like, I don't know what that word is. Sounds like competitor. If they negate, you don't know they negated. And all of a sudden you're like, well, what happened to these conversions? Right. Just say it was a big suburb in Singapore. You have big problems because.

Ange Dove (26:14)

okay.

Ange Dove (26:28)

Okay.

Ange Dove (26:32)

Hmm.

Mm. Right.

Jeremy Yang (26:37)

all of a sudden these leads are not coming from that way of people searching. So it's very dangerous. so negs and stuff is very dangerous. Yes, yes to negs. But it's also when I talk to clients, I have a look at how they look. Just say like, you are like ready for camera, right? You're camera ready. Like, yo, you're video camera ready. So I'll be like, cool. Like this chick can do video ads.

Ange Dove (26:52)

Mm.

Ange Dove (27:02)

Okay, all right.

Jeremy Yang (27:03)

And you have in your, on your social media, had professional photography where you're looking at in distance, you left a bit of gap to put a quoting. I say, cool. Like we can work with that. So now it's a low hanging fruit, but if you had never done that and you're not very like, you don't look that great on video or photo, you know, your, your, voice is not projecting well. So, but it's too hard for me to go and be like, let me coach you how to do an ad.

Ange Dove (27:07)

Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (27:21)

Okay.

small work to do, right? Yeah.

Ange Dove (27:31)

okay, okay. All right. Okay. and then you can send those people over to me and I'll coach them and then I'll send them back to you.

Jeremy Yang (27:31)

You know what mean? Like, cause you be dreading it too. Right? You're like, man, yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. No, I'm not even joking. Yeah, definitely. Cause they need work. They need work to be done. They need copywriting to be done. They need offers created.

Ange Dove (27:44)

Yeah, yeah. Right. And this, this is the thing that used to drive me nuts as well. People that saying just go and get just go and get the business. You don't need to do all this branding stuff. Just go and get the business. And I'm like, No, you need to be ready to get these leads, right? If you're sending leads to a bad site, or, you know, you haven't got your messaging sorted out, it's all confusing. People can't understand it. You're just wasting your money because they'll click in.

Jeremy Yang (27:51)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (28:11)

100%.

Ange Dove (28:12)

Because they want the service, they'll click in, don't recognize what they're seeing, and click out.

Jeremy Yang (28:15)

Yep. Exactly. We'll articulate it hundred percent. The conversion rate is a massive thing for anyone running ads. Ads is only one part of the equation. Yeah.

Ange Dove (28:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had one customer come to me one time. came into my office when I had an actual physical office. He just made a decision just there and then that day, phoned me up, can I come in and see you? I need to see you about my website. Yeah, sure. So he came in and he was sitting opposite me. And I hadn't, I didn't know what business he was doing. So he just came in at this point. So this was completely new for me. Didn't know who he was.

And then he said, so what's happening is we've got Google Ads going and all of the information is saying that loads of people are coming to the site, but they're not buying. They're not doing any transactions through the website with us. So, and I said, well, okay, well, I know what this is going to be, just give me the, just give me your website. And I keyed it in and just, couldn't stop my, I had no filter. I couldn't stop my reaction.

Jeremy Yang (28:57)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (29:07)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (29:14)

Yeah.

What was it? What kind of business was it?

Ange Dove (29:20)

It was kind of like a, like wise, that type of thing where you pay money abroad, right? And they just made it so complicated and it was nothing, no information about you can transfer money. It was all about FX, like Forex. I was like, I don't even know what this is, but as soon as I opened the website, I just went, my God. And he went, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Jeremy Yang (29:27)

those ones yeah yeah

Jeremy Yang (29:38)

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (29:46)

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Done. Yeah. Yeah. Those ones are hard for, for advertising to fix. Like for you. Yeah. It's all right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (29:49)

Your website is the problem. People don't understand what the hell you're doing. So he said, OK, you're hired. He said, you fix it for me. But it's like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But your job is not doing that, right? Your job is just to send them to the site, right? Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Yang (30:07)

don't have the skills for it. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I interrupted. So please continue. What were you going to say about the

Ange Dove (30:14)

No, I can't remember now what was it. But basically, just him coming in and the idea that he was paying all this money for the ads and he wasn't getting the results. And the reason was because he hadn't sorted out his messaging, the visual branding. I like the colors. my God, the colors on this website. Nothing exuded trust, nothing.

Jeremy Yang (30:22)

Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Yang (30:30)

Yes. Yep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's huge.

Ange Dove (30:41)

And then if you're in the business of saying to business owners, can transfer half a million dollars overseas and your website look like this. No one's going to put money through your website. So yeah, so the first thing is get your branding right, your messaging right, look the part, then start to send leads in and work that way.

Jeremy Yang (30:52)

Yeah, 100 % agree. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we see a lot of that.

Jeremy Yang (31:04)

Yep.

Jeremy Yang (31:08)

I had, I spoke to a guy the other day. He's a copywriter in Australia. He's, he's not a brand coach and he's very different to what you do. he's, he's been around for 20 plus years as well. and he was saying, he's explaining to me, this thing called efficiency bias. No, so sufficiency by sufficiency bias. So basically people using AI and because the output is a little bit better than how they can do it. That's it. That's sufficient.

Ange Dove (31:32)

huh.

Ange Dove (31:36)

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (31:37)

to them, right. And that's very bad because they're just getting a convoluted five different businesses that combine together as an output. And they look at it, they say, well, that's better than what I can do. And then they vibe code the website, which then looks like every other website. So yeah, I have a lot of respect for copywriters, believe it or not, because I know how hard it is.

Ange Dove (31:46)

Mm.

Right.

Ange Dove (31:55)

Yes.

Okay. Well, it is, but also, I mean, they're right in a way is like, definitely the AI can do better than someone who's not trained. And when you get the output, you look at it, go, okay, well, that looks okay. It's better, as you say, it's better than what they can do. And it's like, for example, in Singapore, it's the case now of you never see grammar errors on anything written anymore. Because, you know, usually English isn't really a first language here.

Jeremy Yang (32:10)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (32:22)

Mmm, okay, yeah, that's good.

okay. All right. Yep.

Ange Dove (32:28)

So you would get a lot of grammar errors all over the place. So now you don't get that because they all run it through chat GPT or whichever tool. So that's improved that part of it. But what I do is I train people how to use AI to put their brand voice in. So the AI knows exactly who you are, what your business is, what you do, what the unique selling points are for your business, what the pain points are, who the customer is.

Jeremy Yang (32:32)

Hmm?

Jeremy Yang (32:45)

Yes.

Jeremy Yang (32:48)

Yep.

Ange Dove (32:56)

When it has all that information, can create a much better output.

Jeremy Yang (32:59)

Yes, definitely. Yeah. But that's effort and patience as well. Right. Yeah. That's F and patience. And whoever's going to length to do that, they deserve the wing. That's what I think. I think somebody who's, who's taking the time to do that, to, sit in front of someone and get coached, watch stuff, learn an experiment. And by the time you come out at the other end of that, I mean, you deserve to win now. Yeah.

Ange Dove (33:02)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (33:09)

Yeah,

Ange Dove (33:22)

That's right. That's right. But it is, so it's like taking the AI and knowing it's like anything. AI is a tool. If you don't know how to use the tool, you're not gonna be successful. But if you know how to use it, it's gonna do wonders for you, right? So I had this story, I tell this story about, I know, did I tell you this about the photography? No? So.

Jeremy Yang (33:37)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (33:44)

I can't remember. No, possibly. Tell me.

Ange Dove (33:48)

years ago, right, when I was about 20 or something, I went to a concert in Camden Town in London. And it was a very unusual combination of artists playing at this gig. It was Ian Jury and the Blockheads, it's a kind of a punk band, don't know if you've heard of them. Yep. Motorhead, right. And so that's Heavy Metal, right. And then Madness, which is kind of like Scar.

Jeremy Yang (34:04)

Yep.

Yeah, heard of that, yep.

Jeremy Yang (34:16)

Right.

Ange Dove (34:17)

You've probably heard of Magnus, if I played you a song you'd probably recognise them, but three very different genres of music. Anyway, I went to this concert and I was at the front, was only small little concert, I was at the front row and a professional photographer was next to me. He's obviously been hired by one of the, either the music mags or the newspapers to go and cover this event. So he was taking all his pictures with his big DSLR camera, right?

Jeremy Yang (34:20)

Yeah, OK.

Jeremy Yang (34:42)

Mm-hmm.

Ange Dove (34:46)

And I'm there with my little Instamatic. And so I'm taking my pictures with my Instamatic. And then the photographer turned to me and he said, you want me to take some pictures for you with your camera? And I thought, well, that's a strange question. OK, he's a photographer. OK. So I just gave him my camera and he took some pictures. And when I had them developed, this is how long ago it was, right? You go to the shop.

Jeremy Yang (34:49)

Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Yang (35:00)

Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Yang (35:10)

Yeah, I was around for that. Yeah.

Ange Dove (35:12)

Yeah, so when I had them develop, week later I went back, you could tell which ones he had taken and which ones I had taken by a long shot. Same camera, very different results because he knew how to use the tool.

Jeremy Yang (35:20)

Nice.

Jeremy Yang (35:24)

Yeah, what an experience.

Yeah, yeah, I believe it. Like what experience he gave you though, as well, to help you, you know, to be, to for it to be like, yeah, yeah, like a life, life lesson as well, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. How amazing is that? Yeah. Cool.

Ange Dove (35:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to different angles.

Ange Dove (35:41)

Yeah, yeah, it's wonderful. Yeah, and it really just hammered home, A bad workman always blames his tools. right, if you know how to use them, get what you want from them. Okay, so let's go back to ads. So talk to me a little bit about Facebook ads then. When should people use Facebook ads and what's the benefit of that and what's the...

Jeremy Yang (35:50)

you

Jeremy Yang (35:56)

Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Yang (36:01)

Yeah, sure. Yeah, let's get back to ads.

Jeremy Yang (36:06)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (36:11)

maybe some hurdles they've got to be careful of.

Jeremy Yang (36:13)

Yeah. So Facebook ads, the hurdle, I'll start with the hurdles that people get, uh, too fixated on structure and clicking and tricks, right? Like, add this, you know, this, this many ads per ad set. so I'm listening to experts and that's what people call into to ask. Like, Oh Barry, I've got, know, four ads. think I should go to six? You know, I'm using all these abbreviations. It's not going to matter.

Ange Dove (36:34)

Right.

Jeremy Yang (36:41)

If you offer doesn't convert some kind of matter, man, if you got four or six, right. It doesn't matter. So when it that matters is when you're spending a hundred thousand dollars a month on ads. Okay. Every little tweak matters. Right. Because every little mistake is like every time someone goes to sleep and wakes up, you already spent three, three, $4,000. So you better get the stuff right. But as a small business, I would say get really good at face to camera video. I'm, I'm crap at it, but I'm sure your clients want to do, especially

Ange Dove (36:51)

All right.

Ange Dove (36:59)

Mm. Mm-mm. Yeah.

Ange Dove (37:05)

Right. Right. Right.

Jeremy Yang (37:10)

Do you have a lot of coaches and things of that nature? Arts coaching, that kind of thing. Yep. What's going to differentiate now with all the AI stuff is face the camera. Cause that can't be replicated and though I'll say, yeah, that I can, but try not to do this AI stuff because as soon as I can tell you factually, as soon as people recognize AI, the ad doesn't perform at all.

Ange Dove (37:13)

Yeah,

Ange Dove (37:21)

OK. OK. Yeah. Well, it can, but to the AI. Yeah.

Ange Dove (37:38)

wow. Okay. Okay.

Jeremy Yang (37:38)

Factually, yeah. So you can do an AI version because we work a lot of bigger brands too, right? And they have endless money to test things. And when we do, when they are doing testing between AI stuff and non AI stuff, it's, it's, that makes a big difference.

Ange Dove (37:43)

Yeah.

Right.

Ange Dove (37:53)

think a lot of times as well with ads for face to camera, people are just looking for authenticity. And if you make a mistake, probably the ads are going to do better than if you were flawless, right? Because they trust you more, Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (37:58)

Yes.

Jeremy Yang (38:03)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you've got like AI looking faces, if you like a model or really good looking, you should have, you should walk around in a background that's like familiar to your neighborhood. That's my tip to people. Right. So people know that, okay, cool. This is like still real. Yeah.

Ange Dove (38:16)

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (38:22)

this is my next, this is my next phase. Now is camera getting on camera more. Like I do my podcast and I do YouTube and stuff, but I haven't done any ads for my coaching business for, so I need to start doing that.

Jeremy Yang (38:27)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (38:32)

Yeah. I think, I think you have a really big gap because the messaging on your website, you're very honing on who you're targeting. Yeah. It's very, very honing. And I think that if you call that out, so that's the tips, going on with the tips. that's, that's the pitfalls. Don't get fixated too much on the button clicking part. Everyone can do the button clicking. So get fixated on finding open lane. Sorry.

Ange Dove (38:40)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (38:56)

Sometimes it's not even then. Yeah, go ahead.

Jeremy Yang (39:01)

Now I say get fixated on finding an open lane. So Facebook has ads library, right? You can find out what every single competitor is doing. Right. And then now you can use AI, can punch their hooks in, punch their, you know, images in what they're going for. Go to the website, punch their landing page in and say, what are these people going for? And where's my open lane? They say, well, your open lanes, you got a very strong guarantee.

Ange Dove (39:06)

Yeah. Mm.

Yes.

Ange Dove (39:16)

huh.

Right.

Ange Dove (39:23)

rights.

Jeremy Yang (39:27)

They've been 25 years in this thing and none of these other people seem to be targeting the 50 and over. I said, well, there you go. So now you create an ad, say, Hey, you know, you can't really directly call them 50 and over, but Hey, are you familiar with XYZ? I've got this thing for you and now you can target based on age and demographic. So, and you've got a good face to camera video. So, and you have a, hopefully, they've been coached by you. have a good learning page.

Ange Dove (39:29)

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

Gen X. Yeah.

Ange Dove (39:46)

Yes. Yeah.

Ange Dove (39:55)

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Jeremy Yang (39:55)

Offers clear. It's not confusing. Confuse people then buy. Right. And yeah.

Ange Dove (40:03)

OK, so people can do ads for YouTube by doing Google Ads, right? Google Ads takes care of ads for YouTube. Am I right? Really?

Jeremy Yang (40:12)

YouTube doesn't convert very well anymore. YouTube. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not converting. So you got, you want to stay away from YouTube. I can use, use YouTube for discovery. Like, like top funnel game, like bring awareness. You can also use YouTube just as someone went to your website. However, they went there and then they left. You can use YouTube to reinforcing top of mind. They call it mind share. That's still good for it.

Ange Dove (40:18)

Okay.

Ange Dove (40:21)

huh. Right. Yeah.

Ange Dove (40:30)

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Right. I think you've got to be like, from my experience, just as a consumer, right, looking at ads on YouTube, they're annoying as hell, right? Because they, you want to watch a video, and the first and you're waiting for that skip ad to come on. So you can immediately skip it, right? So you're not taking any notice of what the ad is not interested, this is in my way. So it's annoying, right? So that's it doesn't work, right? Because it's annoying. But there are occasions where I have come up with

Jeremy Yang (40:46)

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (41:05)

across an ad. And it's like, okay, now I want to know about this more than I want to watch the video I chose. And I'll stay on the ad, and then click in from there. So it depends. So I think that is then it has to be highly, highly targeted. You've got to you got to hit the right person for that.

Jeremy Yang (41:11)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (41:21)

How's, how to target it? They probably, they've probably been tracking your search terms. They're recording your voice. Google records everything, right? They're recording your voice. Facebook records, you know, you talk about it and all of a it starts seeing ads about it. Right. Yeah. could be a marketing ads as well where, where they pixeled you while you're on the website. That's why you saw that ad about the thing.

Ange Dove (41:27)

Yeah. Yeah.

my gosh.

Ange Dove (41:36)

Yes! Yes!

Ange Dove (41:43)

So this is a retargeting or remarketing thing, Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (41:45)

Yeah, same thing. Yeah. Retargeted remarketing ad as well. Yeah. And then sometimes it's, in the waiting room and it's on TV, right? So it's a YouTube ads on TV. So that's awareness. You can't skip that. That's still YouTube. So that's placement. And then last thing I was going to say was that rich people, I don't know how to say it without sounding offensive, but you can premium YouTube and see no ads.

Ange Dove (41:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Ange Dove (42:10)

Sorry, said again? You can do? Uh-huh.

Jeremy Yang (42:11)

Premium, premium plan YouTube. Premium. So $10 a month.

Ange Dove (42:16)

Okay, so I see an ad sometimes YouTube keeps asking me, do I want to pay for premiums? But then they take away the ads, right? Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (42:21)

Yes. And there is no ads or the ads are gone. So if you are serving a premium market, does that mean that, you know, they're actually not so, are your ads only being served to peasants? Right. So I don't know. Right. And people get all hurt when I say peasants, but you know, is, that though, you know what I mean? Like, so people who don't have money is watching an ad, but people who are private schools and parents of private schools and all that, they just got $10. that's.

Ange Dove (42:28)

Right, and they're choosing not to see the app.

Ange Dove (42:34)

good.

Ange Dove (42:42)

You

Ange Dove (42:48)

huh. Yeah, yeah. okay. that's a new way of looking at it for that then. Okay.

Jeremy Yang (42:50)

you know, get this stuff out of the way. I don't know, but...

Yeah. But they used to work, they used to work, used to be very click baity. And, and the, and the way it used to work is that you had to have what they call a closer. So you have to book a closer, like a salesperson, salesperson that pushes the close. Right. So that's not my style. And when I watched you before coming on the show, I feel like you're very settled down, soft spoke. You know what I mean? Like if you had a closer, like talking about, I'm going to get your son into one of the four schools, right. The tutoring program.

Ange Dove (43:03)

Uh huh. Oh, don't mind that.

Ange Dove (43:08)

What was that?

Ange Dove (43:12)

OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.

Ange Dove (43:20)

yeah.

Ange Dove (43:27)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (43:28)

It 2000, but it's 1500 right now. If you go for it, that kind of closer, right? That used to work for YouTube because it costs a lot of money to get someone to book that call. So when they own the call, better kill it.

Ange Dove (43:33)

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. OK.

Ange Dove (43:41)

I see like on, was this on YouTube? I think it might've been on YouTube or maybe it was Facebook. I don't know which one it was, but I saw one, this really worked. I don't know if it still works today, but I found this really compelling was this woman who taught something. So the ad was, she was teaching a point, right? I'm gonna teach you about this and really confident.

Jeremy Yang (43:49)

They probably do both.

Jeremy Yang (44:02)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (44:06)

And her ad then went through to, you were convinced of that and she said, you want to learn more, click here, right? You then go onto another page, which teaches you more. But this was more a direct sales. And it was right, book a call. And don't book a call if you can't afford 8,000 pounds. It was like that kind of thing.

Jeremy Yang (44:13)

Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (44:20)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (44:25)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was those ones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a formula. It's called a teaching pitch. It's, it's a hardcore formula for ads. So it's probably the one that does, does probably the one of the highest performing after testimonials. Yeah. After proof. Yeah. So, actually that, that is a tip that I forgot to tell your audience. Definitely try to get proof as early as possible.

Ange Dove (44:32)

Okay, huh. Yeah, she was hot. Cool.

Ange Dove (44:40)

Right. Okay. okay.

Ange Dove (44:52)

Right.

Jeremy Yang (44:53)

So if they are switching careers or searching business, I mean, if they have to take a hit to get some results, take that hit, take like financial hit, just to get someone who is good on camera to can do a video testimonial and something like that. Take that hit. Cause that's going to make the night and day difference when it comes to ads. Cause you can blend that into ads, right? You can kind of B roll that in. You can throw it to a, so there's Mary who I got results for six months ago.

Ange Dove (44:56)

Mm.

Ange Dove (45:08)

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (45:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Yang (45:22)

Then they come back and well, if you want to the same results, you know, click to the next page and we'll chat.

Ange Dove (45:27)

And a lot of people need that assurance that someone else has done it before them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. Yeah, that's such a wonderful conversation. We've gone over time, which is always a good sign. So thank you. Yeah, it's been a wonderful conversation. So thank you, Jeremy, so much for being on. And where can people find out more about you? Where can we send them to?

Jeremy Yang (45:30)

Yeah. They don't want to be guinea pig. Yeah. They don't want to be guinea pig. Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully that helps.

Jeremy Yang (45:39)

Yeah, it's good to be here.

Jeremy Yang (45:51)

I think, either the website and you can go digital glass.com digital glass.com.au or just connect with me on LinkedIn. Or if they are interested in being guests on pods and stuff, let me know. Cause I want to try to start my own one as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (45:58)

Okay, all right.

Nice, because you're starting yours as well. Yeah. Yay. Okay. So thank you so much. And I will put the link below wherever you're watching or listening to this and you'll be able to click on and contact Jeremy directly. So thank you, Jeremy, so much for today.

Jeremy Yang (46:19)

Thank you.

Thanks, Ange.