How to Build Your Brand through Public Speaking

Ange Dove (00:00)

Okay, welcome to You're the Boss podcast show. And today I have with me Ian Hawkins, and he's going to be talking to us today about various things, including how to elevate your personal brand through public speaking. So Ian, welcome to the show.

Ian Hawkins (00:18)

Hi Ange how lovely to be here. Thanks for having me.

Ange Dove (00:21)

lovely to have you here. Now you're calling in from the UK. Yeah, so that's why you're making me homesick.

Ian Hawkins (00:25)

Mm-hmm. Yep, God's own country of Brixton.

Ian Hawkins (00:34)

I'm so sorry. Do you remember every time I look at Brixton? There used to be th the Lenny Henry show where he did the Brixton Broadcast Incorporation. And every time I look at it, God, that must have been forty years ago. And it still crosses my mind as a funny thing to do when I'm sitting here with my headphones and my microphone.

Ange Dove (00:44)

Right?

Ange Dove (00:50)

It is. It is. Well, I think the British humour is something that is unique, right, to Britain for sure. There's a lot of people that don't understand the British humour and it's for me, like I've been out. Why?

Ian Hawkins (01:05)

D Andre don't say that. D don't say that. I'm about to take I'm about to take a show to America.

Ange Dove (01:13)

Yeah, they're not going to understand. No, they will. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (01:16)

There I've I've written it very carefully, so it I've I'm because there's nothing worked because lot I I had done stand-up comedy in New York and there was this horrible moment when I was halfway through a bit and I suddenly thought this entire bit relies on understanding who Maureen Littman is. I don't I'm not entirely sure these people do.

Ange Dove (01:24)

Okay.

Ange Dove (01:39)

Yeah, it's got to be culturally understood, guess, right? Oh, dear. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. But yeah, I think the British humour is something that, and I think a lot of people from the USA appreciate it, but then, but I think some of the deep cultural things can only be understood. I think that's the same with everywhere, right?

Ian Hawkins (01:43)

Exactly.

Ange Dove (02:04)

There's a general humour, like for example, give me an example, when the Full Monty came out, the movie, the Full Monty, remember that? And I used to live in Sheffield, so I understood the vocabulary that was used in the film, that even some people from the UK wouldn't have understood, right? Because it's very colloquial, some stuff. But translating that out to the world, I went to see it at the cinema and I went...

Ian Hawkins (02:12)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ian Hawkins (02:19)

Sure.

Ian Hawkins (02:27)

Sure, sure.

Ange Dove (02:33)

with a few British friends and it had subtitles on it, the cinema in English. So although it was speaking in English, subtitles were, think the subtitles were in English, but also in Chinese as well, I think. But I'm not sure if that was the case, but definitely in some parts we were killing ourselves laughing and the audience did catch up until they'd finished reading.

Ian Hawkins (02:48)

Right.

Ian Hawkins (03:01)

Right. But but I you know, they very nearly subtitled train spotting as well for the American market and they eventually decided against it. I can understand why. But often it is the case that that things break through into other cultures when they completely hit the reset button. So I'm thinking of things like Beyond the Fringe, which was the first time people saw proper hardcore satire.

Ange Dove (03:01)

because they just did not understand what was being said.

Ange Dove (03:27)

Right.

Ian Hawkins (03:28)

you know, th that that really broke through in the United States. And Monty Python, of course, had a big breakthrough in the United States. And Monty Python rewrote the rules. So they they weren't trying to say we'll fit into this box. They're saying we have a completely new box and y you've got to come into it and you'll understand. You'll you'll play with our toys. We're not going to play with yours. and I think I think if you look at the office as well, because the office they'd done mockumentary stuff before, but the the language of the office is a Flynn the war documentary. And to use that for comedy

Ange Dove (03:31)

Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (03:42)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (03:46)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (03:57)

Yes. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (03:59)

made it made it a a new set of toys that that the audience is invited to play with.

Ange Dove (04:05)

Yes. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (04:06)

Hadn't thought of that, Ange. That's a that's quite useful. Thank you. I'll take that with me.

Ange Dove (04:11)

Yes. Okay. So what we're talking about today, part of it is because you actually do speaking, so you do comedy, but you do public speaking, right? Take us through exactly what you do and how that started for you first of all.

Ian Hawkins (04:31)

What I do is an is a number of things. So I am a keynote speaker. I stand on stages and talk about the transformative power of storytelling and communication. I also coach people to do that. So I work with leaders because I I say communication and leadership are hand in glove. They're the same thing. You can't be a good leader unless you can communicate what you where you want to lead people to. Kinda makes sense. So I do those two things and I'm also because I I love the work.

Ange Dove (04:53)

Mm. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (05:01)

I am a moderator for events, I moderate round tables. Tonight I'm off to the Ivy Club to host a quiz. So if it's a bunch of people in the room who need leading somewhere, and all moderation is, again, an act of leadership, whether it's taking people through an agenda about how AI is going to change your law firm, or whether it is I've got a bunch of questions and some silly songs and y you're gonna answer some questions, then I will take that audience through that experience.

Ange Dove (05:30)

Right. Nice. Nice.

Ian Hawkins (05:31)

And and I and I hope other people learn how to do the same thing as well.

Ange Dove (05:35)

Right, so you actually teach people how to do that. So how did that start for you in the first place? How did you realise that was something you could do?

Ian Hawkins (05:38)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (05:42)

that there's this there's two answers to this and I I'll give you this because because of the nature of this show, I'll give you the the the professional answer, right? Which is that I started my life as a I I'd just graduated from psychology and criminology and I was supposed to do a PhD and the money for that fell through. So I ended up scrabbling around looking for work and I fell into this company called JLA, which is the UK's largest speaker agency, and I became an agent.

Ange Dove (06:09)

Mm. Okay.

Ian Hawkins (06:10)

Them, which immediately put me in touch with top-line speakers, top-line entertainers, politicians, business people, that kind of thing. At the same time, I was working as a comedy writer for the BBC Radio 4, and these these things all sort of wove together, where I would be seeing somebody at broadcasting house on Saturday, and then a Monday morning somebody would say, We need a

comedians do this thing and I think, I saw them at the weekend, I'll I'll book them for this. So that that was my early experience. And then people kept asking me, how do I make more money? How do I get better at doing this? How do I stop feeling the nerves and the jitters before I I walk on stage? Because actually it's it is quite a thing to be it is one thing to go out and and speak, but it is another thing when you think, God, there's thousands of pounds riding on this.

Ange Dove (06:46)

Hmm.

Ian Hawkins (07:07)

And to and you know, the the pressure is on. If you've been paid, you know, we'd all like to be paid fifteen thousand pounds for a 20 minute talk, right? But actually that does crank up the pressure somewhat. So people kept asking me questions about this, and then I I I left the agency and I just started up by myself, continuing to do stand up, continuing to do quiz hosting and and that kind of thing, but at the same time coaching people through.

Ange Dove (07:16)

Yep.

Ian Hawkins (07:34)

this this process of being a better communicator. And over the years I've I've seen that link between communication and leadership come on really strong. And now I've worked for companies like McLaren and Netflix and Adidas. I'm their in-house guy doing their leadership coaching and communication coaching. And and I work with with all kinds of people, but at the same time still doing the stuff that I that I love doing alongside.

I I like to say that it I I I'm I I I do lots of different things, but there's so much crossover and I don't feel I could be a very good coach if I hadn't if I wasn't out there doing it myself. Yeah. I I like to tell people I've made all the mistakes.

Ange Dove (08:04)

Bye.

Ange Dove (08:12)

Right.

Ange Dove (08:16)

Mm. If you hadn't, yeah, do it yourself. Yeah, that's for certain.

Yeah, well that's the best way to learn.

Ian Hawkins (08:24)

But but you know but I have because I I you know, I remember I started off as a stand-up and I would I and I and I literally tried everything. And and the thing about stand-up is people go, you've got to have good jokes. And I was never afraid of the jokes because I was a comedy writer for the BBC and I wrote for other comedians. And when I wrote myself a a stand-up set, I knew those jokes were good. So why weren't they getting any laughs? And I'd walk home and I wouldn't be cross at myself for not getting a laugh. I'd be thinking

Ange Dove (08:41)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (08:48)

Okay.

Ian Hawkins (08:54)

What am I doing wrong? What can I do differently? and and I'd and I literally tried all kinds of stuff. So every other I would watch comedians and the first thing a comedian does is they take the mic out of the stand, they put the stand behind them. Right? And I thought, right, I'm gonna leave the mic in the stand and just talk into the mic. And that didn't work. But I needed to do it to figure out why it didn't work for me, why people made every move. Jack D does it, but then

Ange Dove (08:57)

Right.

Ian Hawkins (09:24)

But then Jack's a one-off. Yeah, I I once I once chaperoned Jack D to an event. And right, we all know who Jack D is. Okay. And if you don't know him, look him up. And then and then the client said to me at one point, he's just about to go on stage, and she just turned to and she went, Is Jack alright? And I went, Yes. I d I I don't know what you're expecting from him.

Ange Dove (09:27)

He's got a very dry sense of humor.

Ange Dove (09:36)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (09:44)

Yeah

Ian Hawkins (09:53)

That that's not necessarily an act. What you see is kind of how he is, you know.

Ange Dove (09:59)

That's funny. Okay, so you teach people how to do this. I've just got so many questions going on in my head now from what you're saying. So one of them is, right, you said that you go home afterwards. If you didn't get a laugh, you go home and you're trying to analyze why, and then you do things to try and test and work out when you do get a laugh, suppose, as well, why.

So what have you discovered over the years to what is integral to getting a laugh and why do they have to take the microphone off the stand? Or do they?

Ian Hawkins (10:36)

Okay. I I'm gonna I'm right, I'm gonna say a couple of things. So first of all, I think the the most important thing is that that okay, I was I was MCing a a a gig and a friend of mine, the lovely Al Kawi, just took me to one side and said, Ian, as the MC, you don't have to be funny. Stop trying to get a laugh, you don't have to be funny. All you have to do is be in charge. And in fact, that is true of

comedy. You don't stop worrying about the jokes. The first thing is the first thing to establish is being is is leading that audience because you lead them to a laugh. the worst the worst instruction you can get as as a as a comedian is when the MC says a and this has happened to me as well. This our next comedian is he's a new act. He may or may not be funny. See what you think. Please welcome Ian Hawkins. Great. Thanks a lot.

Ange Dove (11:08)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (11:36)

and because then the audience doesn't know. They're they're going, It hmm, is this funny? And if you lead people to it, you say, Right, this is funny, da da da da da and here's the punchline, and you're gonna laugh now. There there's a couple of comedians out there that other comedians can't stand because they say there are they don't do jokes, they just have words that fit into the format of a joke, and the that audience still laughs, damn them, because because they because they're told to laugh. It's like, well.

Ange Dove (11:36)

Yeah, great lead up.

Ian Hawkins (12:04)

Yeah, but that's that's what ninety percent of a successful joke is. It's performance and leadership and the actual words are pr you know, sometimes quite secondary. Yeah, that that balance changes according to who you are. Yeah. So some comedians are absolutely all about the wordplay. And others are just about I'm gonna lead you. And that's but people talk about comic timing. Comic timing is about being in charge and being in control and then giving you a pause.

Ange Dove (12:14)

Right. Okay. All right. And the timing, I suppose, as well, right? The timing of the delivery.

Mm.

Ian Hawkins (12:33)

So you know to laugh right now. Yeah? so so that's that's the first thing I learned. And the second thing I learned was was rather delightfully has crossover with all of the most innovative companies I've worked with. And it is this it is if you can't stand the thought of being wrong, you are never going to innovate. Because all innovation come is built on a solid foundation of getting it wrong and making mistakes.

Ange Dove (12:33)

Mm.

Ange Dove (12:37)

Right. Okay.

Ange Dove (12:56)

Okay.

Ian Hawkins (13:02)

And sometimes you have to sometimes you have to drop the beautiful antique Chinese vase so that it smashes into a million pieces and you find Granny's gold that was hidden inside it. You know. that that's absolutely essential. And I was I was talking to somebody who's a actually he's a f he's an F one he speaks about F one, of of which I have no interest. But here's the stat that really interested me.

Ange Dove (13:10)

Mmm.

Ange Dove (13:16)

Nice, nice analogy. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (13:31)

The car that goes on the grid, the racing car that goes on the grid on the first race meet, by the end of the season, ninety-nine percent of the components of that car have been tinkered with over the course of one season to buy them a second here or a second there. And you just go, right, well ain't ain't everything like that. Whether you're doing a bit of stand-up, whether you're trying to create a new piece of code, whether you're a SAS, whether you are building a

Ange Dove (13:44)

Mm. All right.

Ian Hawkins (13:59)

brand or a product or trying to run a restaurant, turning that dial 1%, 1%, 1% every day is what gets you some it what gets you to s to to greatness. And you'll never and the energy behind turning that dial is almost always in trying new stuff and being prepared for it to fail.

Ange Dove (14:06)

Mmm. Mmm.

Ange Dove (14:13)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (14:20)

Yeah, I agree. think that's where, like from my experience, where a lot of people stumble when they're trying to build their brand is they think it all has to be right, right now, right from the start. When they launch it, this is what I'm going with for the next 20 years. Right. That's impossible. And it's just like, just go with what you've got. And you, as you say, you can tweak it. You can turn that dial a little bit. You listen to what the customers are saying, deliver what they want.

Ian Hawkins (14:21)

Mm-hmm.

Ian Hawkins (14:36)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (14:50)

And you're not going to know that until you get out there and actually serve them in the first place. You can't possibly start turning any tiles.

Ian Hawkins (14:54)

Sixty sixty percent always looks rubbish in hindsight, but it's much better than zero. You know?

Ange Dove (15:00)

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. You've just got to start. You've got to start. So one of the ways people can enhance their brand then is through speaking, keynote speaking, things like that. So you mentioned earlier about people asking you, how did they get rid of the nerves when they've got to go on? And it always looks easier than it actually is. When you see somebody's presenting and they present well, you think, that's so easy to do.

Ian Hawkins (15:10)

Mm-hmm.

Ian Hawkins (15:29)

Does does it? Ange, I'm a speaker coach. I've seen some horror shows, so Yeah.

Ange Dove (15:29)

actually.

Yeah, I like that. But when you see someone that does it really well, right, you think, oh, they make it look so easy. Right. That's what I'm saying. But to actually go and do that is, I mean, that takes skill, practice and probably years, I guess. But how do you how do you calm the nerves? And then another question, I would say, actually, also is, are nerves necessary? Because it kind of shows you care, right?

Ian Hawkins (15:54)

Hmm.

Ian Hawkins (16:00)

Yeah, I need the nerves. I need a little bit 'cause I need a bit of pep and energy. If you're talking to a room of five hundred people, I don't know about you. I'm well, we talk about introverts and extroverts, and the nice thing about that is it's given this is slightly new vocabulary, this idea of a social battery and that you you drain it all down. Now there's nothing inherently tiring about having a chat with someone for an hour. You know, went out for dinner with my mate Tom last night. We we sat around, we chatted about his upcoming wedding, we talked about the news. I didn't walk away after an hour of that feeling

Ange Dove (16:22)

Right.

Ian Hawkins (16:31)

Drained and exhausted. So why do I feel drained and exhausted when I which I will do when I finish hosting my quiz tonight? And and the answer is because of lots of things. It's because of nerves, adrenaline, and that social battery idea. When you're talking to 500 people, you've got to look to the edges of the room. You've got to bring that person in, you've got to bring that person in. I'm losing the room over there. I've got to think about this. And y you've got to be s really switched on to

Ange Dove (16:40)

Bye.

Ian Hawkins (17:00)

To everything that's happening, and that requires a lot of brain power. Now, nerves, stage fright, is just the f fight, flight, freeze, and fall response that we get to adrenaline. And there's a couple of reasons for that. One is that because we are we have the eyes on our front of our head, everybody looks like a predator. So your audience of five hundred people looks like five hundred predators all looking at you. And right, and you're laughing because it's not rational.

Ange Dove (17:13)

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (17:22)

Alright.

Ian Hawkins (17:28)

But here's the thing, stage fright isn't rational. So you can't rationalise your way out of it. Okay, and that's fundamental because so many people do try and go, no, it's all fine, it's all fine. You can't rationalise your way out of an irrational fear. Because what happens is the the lizard brain in the middle of your head, right, that just goes predators and it zoops your adrenaline up. So the only way to get rid of it is to point your hands at the ceiling, right? Point your palms to the ceiling.

Ange Dove (17:32)

Right. Yeah.

Ange Dove (17:51)

Right.

Ian Hawkins (17:58)

Take in a deep breath and then let it out for longer than you breathed in for. And that is the only thing that will calm your nerves. Now, some friends of mine have have used hypnosis, works on very similar principles, and is incredibly effective. but the idea that you can struggle on through is is is a myth. You you and you shouldn't, because it doesn't lead to better performances. the other thing I'd say is over

Ange Dove (18:12)

Right.

Ian Hawkins (18:24)

A a symptom. Now I'm I'm researching with my friend Nadine Dereza. We're we're rewriting the book we wrote 14 years ago, Inside the Secrets of Public Speaking. And we are we we did a bit more research into the latest science around stage fright. And she came up with the the s slightly f startling news that when you sit down after you've spoken, if you're sitting there going, I should have done this and I should have done that.

I I I forgot that joke, and that that could have gone better. Then you're fine. If you sit there and you feel depressed, that's a symptom of stage fright. And I said, That's me all the time. I go and I do a great show. I sit down, I go, I'm a terrible human being. That that's a symptom of stage fright. The the the other one that people don't don't pick up on, and it's a it's

Ange Dove (19:03)

Okay.

Ian Hawkins (19:21)

And now I when I say this, Ange, this is gonna be such a dead giveaway. and you won't be able to unsee it. So you have fight, flight and freeze, which we kind of understand, and the last one is full. And it's when a speaker stands on stage and the first words out of their mouth are I'm sorry. I'm sorry I shouldn't be here Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking or I I'm I'm I've got a bad throat or or I'm sorry

Ange Dove (19:32)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. All right.

Ian Hawkins (19:49)

Tom couldn't be here today, so I'm filling in for him, so I'm really sorry I'm here. Yeah. But people do that, don't they? You've seen that. I'm not reimagining okay. And that is to try and ingratiate yourself with an audience, and it never works. Because the audience is sitting saying, No, we're not gonna give you our forgiveness. You're supposed to be the one giving us stuff. You're supposed to be giving us.

Ange Dove (19:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ian Hawkins (20:16)

value and data and stories and entertainment or whatever it is that they've paid their money to come see. So don't so so when you go on and and try and ingratiate yourself with an audience and get all anxious. it's it's horrible. But it's as symptom of stage fright.

Ange Dove (20:22)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (20:31)

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So you'll be very mindful of the first thing you say, right? When you go out. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (20:38)

yeah, it's because the most important thing the most important words out of your mouth and and i i y hit the ground running. Big stat, did you know NASA spent seventy million dollars on discovering that bees cannot fly? Or you know, the the one that's current at the moment, 70% of digit of AI transformation projects fail. 70%. Who here is doing an AI?

Ange Dove (21:02)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (21:06)

transformation project, right, everybody. Which seventy percent is gonna fail and which 30 are going succeed. that it's the hook at the beginning. And if you and if you do go up late and you are replacing somebody, never say sorry, but if you have but it's good to acknowledge the situation, but you can turn every sorry into a thank you. Tom can't be here today, so I'm delighted and grateful that I am going to be delivering this fantastic speech to you.

Ange Dove (21:09)

Yeah. Yeah. So it's that hook at the beginning that draws people in,

Ange Dove (21:20)

Mm.

Ange Dove (21:27)

Mmm.

Ange Dove (21:34)

Yeah. And a lot of

Ian Hawkins (21:35)

Thank you for bearing with us while we get the sound sorted.

Ange Dove (21:39)

Yeah, because that's something, yeah, when tech, when the tech goes wrong, that's, that's another, yeah, yeah, that happened.

Ian Hawkins (21:40)

Yeah. Turn your sorry into a thank you.

Yeah, but don't apologize for it. Say thank you for bearing with it. Because the audience is already grumpy.

Ange Dove (21:53)

happened to me once, the first time I ever did a webinar, I first of all, I swore I'd never do one because I'm thinking that's two things in one, that's public speaking and tech together. That's not a good combination. So I think I didn't want to do that. And I thought I'd never do it. But eventually someone persuaded me to do it. said, okay, I'll give it a go. And then it's like, okay, well, what's worst thing that can happen? Well, the tech can fail, right? That's the worst thing.

Ian Hawkins (21:58)

Mm-hmm.

Ian Hawkins (22:08)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (22:15)

And now here we are.

Ange Dove (22:22)

And then, so I did the, I started off my webinar and then I have my phone next to me and the phone went off on my WhatsApp. And I had a message from someone who was watching going, you're not there anymore. Really? okay. So I had to log back into the, I don't know why did, but I logged back into the webinar software, I got back into the studio and,

then we just had a good laugh about it because, and then after that, everything was fine. Because like the worst thing to possibly happen had happened. And then after that, was like, well, it's okay.

Ian Hawkins (22:59)

And and again, what what is the worst thing that happens on a webinar? Either I mean the worst thing is nobody turns up. That is the worst thing, because then all your all your preparation has been a waste of hours and hours and hours. The second worst thing is that nobody sees you, in which case you've only wasted an hour of their time, but you know they're keen and you can always go back to them with a recording or whatever and say ap apologies, whatever. or

Ange Dove (23:06)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (23:11)

Uh-huh.

Ian Hawkins (23:26)

Or that's it. Or or it just becomes or it becomes so messy people people log off. The only thing about webinars, the worst thing that can happen is, I don't know, your computer electrocutes you. But who's ever heard of that? And and the world can see it. I i I think but there you are, the level of anxiety you feel is totally disproportionate to the to the stakes.

Ange Dove (23:40)

Yeah

Ange Dove (23:45)

Click there.

Ange Dove (23:51)

Yes, yes. And I think this is the thing with everything. We always tend to kind of imagine the worst case scenario and beat ourselves up about it before it's even happened, right? And then the reality is it probably will never happen. The chances of it happening that way you imagine it just almost never happened, right?

Ian Hawkins (24:10)

Well, that leads us very neatly on to the next the other thing that I coach people on, which is storytelling. Because human beings, we are storytellers and we are sh story listeners and we're story creators. And if we do not have the full story, we will create a bit. You know. So so your best friend doesn't phone you when she said she would. You go, well, that that makes me feel unloved. That makes me feel terrible. She's forgotten about me. She's

Ange Dove (24:16)

Right? Right.

Ange Dove (24:28)

Mm.

Ian Hawkins (24:39)

She doesn't like me. She's not real friend. She's lying. She's she's what a duplicitous cow. Right. And the and the answer is that her phone ran out of battery or her mum phoned up and won't get off the phone. Or she's desperately trying to send you a text message, but she's out of signal. You know. We we we create these we fill in the gaps in stories. And if we if we're happy people we fill them in in happy ways. If we if we don't, they won't.

Ange Dove (24:49)

Mm.

Ange Dove (24:56)

Right. Yeah.

Ange Dove (25:01)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (25:05)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (25:08)

And and and a story is a very specific shape. It has a it has an inciting incident. A thing happens, and then we find out more about it. We explain the ins inciting incident, and then we make a decision right in the middle. That's because we're the main character. And then there are consequences of that decision, and then we resolve the situation that we started with. And that's how every story in our brain works, and that's the pattern our brain falls into.

Ange Dove (25:14)

Bye.

Ange Dove (25:34)

Right, so when you're doing any kind of keynote presentation or something like that, how integral is telling stories into that process?

Ian Hawkins (25:41)

Mm.

Ian Hawkins (25:47)

It's it's very important, but it's it's not sitting there necessarily saying once upon a time and everything has to be an anecdote. It's about making sure that you have all those data points covered so that people understand why this has happened and what's going on and the decision. And it's interesting actually with the decision, when you explain what your decision is, people don't have to agree with it, but they will respect it. because you say, Well, I could have done this or I could have done that. But I chose to do this. So your best friend

Ange Dove (25:57)

Yeah. huh.

Ange Dove (26:08)

Mm. Mm. Okay. Right. And then you have a point of view. Mm.

Ian Hawkins (26:16)

Phones you up tomorrow and she says, I'm sorry I didn't call you yesterday, Angie, but I my mum fell over and broke her ankle. I had to take her to hospital. Well, you can't be angry with that, of course. You know, priorities woman. So you go, fine.

Ange Dove (26:29)

Yeah.

Okay. we've covered the nerves, right? So how you calm yourself down before you go on is to breathe, right? So breathe in and then breathe out longer than the time you breathe in. So why does that work? Do you know?

Ian Hawkins (26:44)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (26:52)

It works because you're telling your the the the the lizard bit of your brain that you're safe and that y that everything is is fine. Because because you do your big thinking with the outside of your brain. Right? What we're doing now is we're talking the outside of our brain. But if something terrible were to happen, if a car were to crash into the front of my flat or or or whatever, suddenly I'd go into survival mode and I wouldn't be able to think about I I wouldn't be able to think about this this this webinar.

Ange Dove (26:57)

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (27:05)

Mm.

Ange Dove (27:16)

Mm. Mm.

Ian Hawkins (27:22)

be like I've got to sort that out. So what you want to do is you want to tell the lizard that everything is fine and that it can stop worrying and then you start thinking with the outside and then you can have you know fairly fluid conversations like that.

Ange Dove (27:23)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (27:39)

then the next step is being very mindful of the first thing that you say once you get out there and have that hook ready for.

Ian Hawkins (27:47)

I I always say that speaking is a bit like tennis. You wouldn't go on to a tennis court with somebody and say, I reckon I can beat you because I've read a really good book about tennis. Yeah Well, no you have to have done the work. You have to got on the court and batted the ball around back and forth. And then then you've got a chance of being a good tennis player. And speaking is exactly the same. It doesn't matter how good your script is or what your opening line is or all of the stuff that you intellectualise beforehand.

Ange Dove (27:59)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (28:15)

If you walk on stage and your mind goes blank, then your preparation hasn't really done anything, has it? You're y what happens is you sit down going, Why didn't I say any of the things I intended to? And and I know there are

Ange Dove (28:28)

Right. So that's another that's another big thing you brought up is, yeah, your mind going blank. I mean, when I very first started to do things.

Ian Hawkins (28:35)

Yeah, but that's because you're thinking with that and all your all your prep is on the outside and you you walk on and you and you're thinking with that and you're just in survival mode. All you want to do is get through it.

Ange Dove (28:39)

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, because that used to happen with me. I could never get on camera. I could never do this. Like five years ago, I couldn't do this. And I practice and practice and practice with the camera to actually do it. But it used to be like I'd have a script, I'd memorize everything, and then someone would turn the camera on. All right, and off you go. And then my brain would empty. And I could remember nothing, nothing of what I was supposed to say. And then go, OK.

Ian Hawkins (28:50)

Mm-hmm.

Ian Hawkins (29:08)

Right.

Ange Dove (29:13)

start again. This is what you're supposed to say. I just couldn't do it. couldn't do it. So how important is, like you mentioned, you've got to go out there and do the reps, basically. You've got to practice. How important is the practice part of it? And how important is actually having a script and memorizing it?

Ian Hawkins (29:35)

Well, I think practice is super important because you just get used to being on stage. And I I have quite bad stage fright, but I like I say, I I turn it into positive energy, I turn it into pep. I've got five hundred people there, I'm an introvert. Bosh, I if you want me to be Mr. Showbiz, then here I am. so the business of getting used to being on stage I think is a is a is a really good thing to to do.

Ange Dove (29:40)

Mm.

Ange Dove (29:59)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (30:01)

Sorry, what was the other thing? having a script. Having a script I think is is it's good to know where you're going. But I I don't think of it as a script. I think you've you sometimes it's good to have a form of words. And certainly when I was doing stand up I would have a I would have I would have bits. That I could go into and with by just sheer muscle memory would would come out of a couple of minutes later. I could st I could stand there chatting away.

Ange Dove (30:21)

Mm. Mm.

Ian Hawkins (30:30)

thinking have we run out of milk again have I gotta have I gotta pick up some sausages on the way home but I I think that most for most of us as a speaker especially if you're doing brand building you want people to know who you are and you want people to feel they're having a conversation with you and for that I think it's good to have bullet points it's good to have structure but sometimes you just want

Ange Dove (30:34)

Ha

Ian Hawkins (30:58)

whatever comes out of your mouth to come out of your mouth. There are three things that you need to be a good speaker. And these are my golden principles. I stand by them and everyone from a good good open mic comedian to a a revered world leader will do these three things. First of all, they have authority. So that thing I said about leading people to a joke, that having shown leadership, they'll have that. The second thing they will do is they will have

they have an awareness of what the audience wants and will meet the promises they have made to the audience. So we're gonna promise that we're talking about being a boss today. And look at us, we're talking about being a boss. If we talked about ukulele playing, your listeners would switch off. Okay, so give the audience meet the promises you made to the audience. And the last thing is authenticity. Be yourself. Why would you want anything else?

Have you tried to read a piece of text that's been written by AI? It's about no. we we are increasingly surrounded by dull corporate messages and robots writing stuff that is bland and says nothing. You know, be your authentic self because everybody else is taken and you are in a class of one. Because what what is the most

Ange Dove (32:16)

Yep. Love it. Yeah, there's only one of you.

Ian Hawkins (32:21)

Yeah, what's the most effective message you can say to to bring down a politician? Calling them a liar. So you can't believe anything they say. Great. Okay. that now there's a clear tension between political expediency and and telling the truth. But it but it's effective. But y you have horrible politicians out there at the moment, and the the people that vote for them say, Well, they tell it like it is. You go. That they're a racist buffoon. You go Yeah, they tell it like it is.

Ange Dove (32:37)

Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Ange Dove (32:46)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Ian Hawkins (32:51)

they're incredibly corrupt. Yeah, they take it like it is. So you go, Well, I don't understand that, but it it seems to make sense to you.

Ange Dove (32:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I think because people have got fed up of, as you say, like politicians that scout around, skirt around the topic, right, you can ask them a thousand times. And there are some very good interviewers that won't let them get away with it. But generally, they're trained not to answer the question or they'll answer it the way they want to answer it. And people can see through that. know, okay, didn't answer the question. I haven't heard what I want to hear, you know.

Ian Hawkins (33:21)

Yeah. I know. P people like me tell to do that. That actually actually I I do I do say that the the core of your response has to be a an answer to the question. It has to be it has to be truthful. And some well sometimes the questions are it's very simple, Minister, is it a yes or a no? And sometimes it's not a yes or no question. You know, if the the the classic one is does the Prime Minister believe in Father Christmas?

Ange Dove (33:38)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (33:46)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (33:51)

You

Ian Hawkins (33:51)

So what's the headline gonna be? Yes, the Prime Minister believes in Father Christmas. Haha. W what else does he believe in? Or is the headline tomorrow gonna be Prime Minister ruins Christmas for millions of children? It's not a yes or no answer, is it?

Ange Dove (34:07)

Yeah, my god, yeah, that's a good point. Okay, one thing you said that I think really got my attention just a minute ago, and you said it earlier on in the interview as well, is you talked about yourself being an introvert. Some would say there's introverts, there's extroverts, there are people that are to be more comfortable being on camera or getting on stage, and those that are not. How much is being an introvert

sort of getting in the way of that or does it help?

Ian Hawkins (34:41)

being an introvert massively helps. I I think 'cause I am one and I've I've I look around, I see so many introverts making doing really well in by being on stage. Freddie Mercury's the one I always go for. Michael McIntyre's the other one. Complete introvert. Yeah. Yeah. A classic introvert. Classic introvert because what does he do? He's a he's a crowd pleaser.

Ange Dove (34:53)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (34:58)

he's, he's, really? I love him. I love him.

Ian Hawkins (35:06)

Right? He goes out and says, What does this all what what promise have I made this audience? Is that I'm gonna give them a good time. Freddie Mercury says, What right, Freddie Mercury and Queen are a bunch of misfits. You've got this you've got this little gay boy with mad teeth from Zanzibar. Right. And all he wants to do is feel like he fits in. All he wants to do is is to feel like he's he's he's popular.

Ange Dove (35:07)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (35:13)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (35:29)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (35:33)

And he goes, right, if I appeal to people like me who want to feel fitting in and popular, they all want to rally around someone who's an absolute rock and roll god. And I'm gonna give them that and I'm gonna be that for that audience. And that that is the trick of Freddie Mercury. And that's why you look at him and go, That little that little gay boy from Zantabar is actually the most magnetic human being on the face of the planet. I yeah, literally, look at me. Lost for words describing Freddie Mercury.

Ange Dove (35:33)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (35:44)

And he did, yeah.

Ange Dove (35:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Ange Dove (36:03)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (36:03)

and then we'd throw these massive rock and roll parties where there's people wandering around with bowls of cocaine balanced on their heads. And where's Freddie? He's upstairs with the cats. Yeah. That introverts hate people. I'm an introvert. I love people. I just find it really tiring. I like running. I like I love running, but I find it really tiring. So I it just means I have to manage my energy a little bit more carefully.

Ange Dove (36:21)

Right? Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange Dove (36:31)

Yeah, I think that's key is managing your energy, right? Because as you say, it is tiring. I know one person that is a trainer here in Singapore. And he says he can do like a whole day or a two day training. And then he has to go and lie down for the rest of the week kind of thing because his energy is completely drained. He finds it he's a real introvert. don't know. I can't think of anyone more introverted.

Ian Hawkins (36:41)

Okay.

Ange Dove (37:00)

that I've met ever than him. But he can get up and get on stage for the whole day.

Ian Hawkins (37:04)

Well we we moved into this flat fairly on in with my partner and I our relationship and COVID came along quite soon afterwards. We were all locked in. And I think we're still trying to sort of getting to know each other and I think we both sat in the front room and three hours went by and neither of us said anything. And one of us said, This is all right, isn't it? It's like, yeah, that's great. Very good at being quiet with each other.

Ange Dove (37:28)

Hahaha

Yeah, yeah, you don't have to perform, right? yeah.

Ian Hawkins (37:33)

So thank goodness for that. Yeah well 'cause occasionally people do say to my partner and they they sort of thumb at me and go, Is he like that at home? And we look at each other going, God imagine if

Ange Dove (37:48)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (37:51)

Oh, interesting. Okay, interesting. So good question there then. So obviously you're not the same at home as you are on stage, right? But then you also said you have to be yourself. So how does that translate?

Ian Hawkins (37:59)

Dear God no. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (38:04)

Well, I think we all wear we all wear hats, don't we, Ange? We all h here's the here's the one that I I give to people. Imagine you're you're three months pregnant with your second and much wanted child. And you have to tell three people. You have to tell your boss who's horrible, you have to tell your mum, who's d who's delighted about being a grandma first time round and it's really would be absolutely over the moon about doing again. And then you have to explain to your existing toddler.

Ange Dove (38:27)

Mm-hmm.

Ian Hawkins (38:31)

Right? Same information, same facts, but you'd explain it in three completely different ways, don't you? Right? And the the perky upbeat Mr. Chauvis version of myself is a version of myself, but it's and it's authentically me. It just belongs on that stage. It's it's it's it's what I'm like when I'm, you know, when I'm when I'm facing these people and I'm thinking, what's what's the promise I've made and how can I be in charge of it?

Ange Dove (38:32)

Ha ha ha

Ange Dove (38:36)

Yeah, okay. Okay, got it. That's different role.

Ange Dove (38:43)

Mmm.

just belongs on that stage. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Ange Dove (38:58)

Yeah, this is like Alice Cooper for me. He's my all time hero is Alice Cooper. He's exactly the same. He has the stage persona, but he's this devil kind of thing on stage, but he's the sweetest guy in person in real life.

Ian Hawkins (39:14)

It isn't he ludicrously like born-again Christian or something? And and yet, as I as I like to point out, yet had used to s hire the arch atheist James Randy to cut his head off at the climax of every show. So we can all work together in peace and harmony and love and peace, can't we?

Ange Dove (39:18)

Yeah, yeah.

Ange Dove (39:34)

He's brilliant. He's brilliant.

Ian Hawkins (39:39)

And what and and and what makes it work, what makes it work is is play. Play and storytelling and being something you're not. And and we all understand when Alice Cooper stands there as a born-again Christian and and he has the and he has God in his heart, but he knows that we all pretending that he's this evil character, that he plays, and that that is and that makes it safe, and we can we can play with the darkness.

Ange Dove (39:45)

Mm.

Ange Dove (40:02)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (40:09)

And then go home and tuck our kids into bed and or or possibly go to church. Or whatever we want to do.

Ange Dove (40:09)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Ange Dove (40:18)

I love it, I love it. Okay, so one last question before we finish, because unfortunately we're running out of time, but this has been captivating to speak to you. Time has gone by so fast. What would you say would be if you had to give someone who is just starting off on the speaking circuit, whatever, and then they're going to have their first speaking.

role, like real important one, a real keynote speech that they have to deliver. What is the best piece of advice you can give to them on that first go round?

Ian Hawkins (40:54)

Make it about the audience. Don't think about what you're doing, think about what the audience is doing at any time. so, what is what is it you want them to take away? What do what do they want to take away? What's the what's the promise you've made that audience and how are you going to deliver it? So the more you know about who's sitting out there and what they're likely to want from someone like you, the easier it is for you to deliver it. And especially on the speaker circuit, the ide the idea that you have to be good is something you can actually park. If

Ange Dove (41:08)

Right.

Mmm.

Ian Hawkins (41:24)

People walk away going, I'm gonna use those that one thing that I think you've probably done better than most speakers.

Ange Dove (41:25)

Bye.

Ange Dove (41:29)

Mm.

I've heard someone say that recently, somebody could just take one thing away from what you've talked about, you've succeeded, right? Yeah, I think that's true.

Ian Hawkins (41:36)

Okay.

Ian Hawkins (41:39)

Yeah. Yeah. th there are so I've I've seen hundreds, possibly thousands of speakers in my time. And the ones that have stuck with me

Ange Dove (41:47)

Mm.

Ian Hawkins (41:52)

are are th there are some people that are making an awful lot of money and I can't tell you what they talk about. And I've seen them a couple of times. I've I've represented them, some of them, and I can't tell you what they've what they talk about. But there's a couple. Some of them you would you've no idea who they are. And they have just said that just it's got me right there. And when and the the other the question people often ask me is who who's your who's your favourite speaker? And I say you won't know them.

Ange Dove (42:01)

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Ange Dove (42:15)

Okay.

Ange Dove (42:20)

Mm. Mm.

Ian Hawkins (42:21)

Because it is someone that that never said anything at all. And I watched her move from being unable to introduce herself round a round a conference table to leading a webinar. at least sorry, leading a seminar and leading a conference. And did she did she do it as well as somebody that gets paid thousands of pounds to do it from the BBC? No, she didn't do it that well. But she did it with authority and authenticity and gave the audience what they want, and that was

Ange Dove (42:33)

Right. Right. OK.

Ange Dove (42:48)

Mm.

Ian Hawkins (42:49)

massive and moving to see her step into that room.

Ange Dove (42:53)

Right, that's what she was there to do. also it's like, yeah, it's like comparing where you started from to where you end up and that could be a massive gap, right? As well.

Ian Hawkins (42:54)

That's what the shoe is there to do.

Ian Hawkins (43:03)

Yeah. I mean I some sometimes I talk about I haven't had a drink for eleven years, so I'm a recovering alcoholic. But sometimes I mention that on stage. And inevitably if I do, I always think 'cause there's a bit of a bit of a Debbie Downer who's who's who's really interested. And inevitably somebody will come up after us and say, I really needed to hear that and I think, right, well, if it it made a lot of sense to to one person, then I can live with it. You know.

Ange Dove (43:09)

Right.

Ange Dove (43:29)

Mmm. Nice.

Ian Hawkins (43:32)

I d I did a I did a I d I did a job in Order Shop once. I looked through the curtain and it was all squaddies, all all men, all from the army. God. I thought, am I gonna do all my jokes about being gay? And I th and I thought, maybe I shouldn't. I thought no fuck it, I should, because because they need to hear it. And if there's one thing that's that's might get me a little bit of kudos, it's standing in front of two hundred squaddies and doing jokes about being gay. Because I'm not the only one in that room.

Ange Dove (43:52)

Yeah.

Ian Hawkins (44:01)

no matter what they say. And you know what, they were they were nice as pie. Never judge peop never judge a book by its cover. They were they were d they laughed at all the jokes. They were completely delightful. And we w ended up having drinks at the bar afterwards, so

Ange Dove (44:02)

Hahaha

Ange Dove (44:07)

Yeah.

Ange Dove (44:19)

Yeah, you're right. Never judge because you never know. You never know what's going to land with people. yeah, for sure. For sure. For sure. OK, Ian. So thank you so much for being on today. And just tell us where we can send people to find out more about yourself.

Ian Hawkins (44:21)

Never judge.

Ian Hawkins (44:25)

Exactly.

Ian Hawkins (44:37)

I I am all over LinkedIn like a cheap raincoat in a thunderstorm, Ian R Hawkins. I've got a little speaker in front of my name, that's how you find me. Otherwise I'm at mrhyphenhawkins.com and I I I run a a WhatsApp newsletter that comes out on the first of every month. So if you're really keen, I send those out and it's top tips and tricks and things that have crossed my mind the month before and I do there's no spam, no it no adverts and I don't abuse it and it's no cost.

Ange Dove (44:51)

Okay.

Ian Hawkins (45:07)

And it's just a a a WhatsApp message every month.

Ange Dove (45:09)

Excellent. Every month. So we'll, wherever you're listening or watching this, there'll be links down around here that you can go and click into find, found, find Ian online and learn more about him and connect with him. So Ian, thank you so much for today.

Ian Hawkins (45:27)

Thanks, Nan. It's been a huge pleasure.